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Should US be punished for all this mayhem it has caused in this world? (pg. 3)
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| Sunsnail |
| If you could argue its Bush's fault for rapings and such of soldiers then you could go furthur and argue that it's actually the American people's fault since they elected him :rolleyes: |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsnail
If you could argue its Bush's fault for rapings and such of soldiers then you could go furthur and argue that it's actually the American people's fault since they elected him :rolleyes: |
Exactly.
If a business has 60,000 employees and 10 are fired for stealing, is it the CEO's fault because they stole? |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Not necessarily. The ONLY reason that place isn't one huge pile of smoking rubble is because no one could move from under dictator Saddam's big thumb. |
lol here you again with the Saddam bull.
| quote: | | Now that there's some actual 'freedom', the infighting between the local warlords / religious sects can now play itself out. |
yaaaaaaaaaaa they are free now,free to kill eachother every single day :rolleyes:
| quote: | | You'd have to be a complete idiot in thinking that wasn't going to happen; just look at ANY democratic country and you'll see that pattern; why so be shocked about the obvious? |
and you have to be a complete retard to think this is all part of the road to democracy.
| quote: | The Iraqi people will have to decide for themselves and this will all play out in the end.
Will it be easy? No one ever said it would be.
Will it be worth it? That's a fate only the Iraqi people can answer themselves, however at least they're actually being given the opportunity to decide for themselves which is why the States need to get out of that crossfire and not complicate the situation for them any longer. |
GREAT IDEA!!! so lets go and invade a country and turn it into a in zoo and then tell the people to fix it.
| quote: | As for the raping, pillaging, etc. can Bush really be blamed for all that??
Theoretically he is the one in over-all command, however he can't be faulted for EVERY SINGLE incident that some dumb-assed grunt makes on their own accord. |
I agree he shouldnt be blamed,he should just face the death penalty like Saddam,,this way justice will be served. :)
I say hang the right infront of the whitehouse. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Exactly.
If a business has 60,000 employees and 10 are fired for stealing, is it the CEO's fault because they stole? |
However in this case it is the CEO'S doing all the stealing. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
lol here you again with the Saddam bull.
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Yea, because I'm the ONLY one that thinks that. :rolleyes:
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yaaaaaaaaaaa they are free now,free to kill eachother every single day :rolleyes:
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Because Saddam wasn't doing it before?
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and you have to be a complete retard to think this is all part of the road to democracy.
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Really?
Show me one that hasn't then.
(of course I'm not expecting you to ACTUALLY do that; that might take some thought).
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GREAT IDEA!!! so lets go and invade a country and turn it into a in zoo and then tell the people to fix it.
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Do you have absolutely no faith in the Iraqis?
Or do they just love being told how to live in fear all the time?
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I agree he shouldnt be blamed,he should just face the death penalty like Saddam,,this way justice will be served. :)
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Too bad, it's just your best anarchist bud Saddam getting what he deserves. :)
It must be so hard to look cool, keep that anarchist 'edge', and that air of mystery with your friends when sounding this unhinged on a political forum eh?
Especially with your idol swingin' from the rafters...
You think they'll come out with red Saddam shirts?
Oh gawd, what will you where then?
Che?
Saddam?
Tough choices I know...*sigh*
It's so hard being a fashion anarchist these days and still seem socially relevant. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
However in this case it is the CEO'S doing all the stealing. |
Please tell me your English isn't that bad.
You do know that CEO was used in a possessive state and not in the plural?
(And that's not including making some totally irrelevant hyperbole of my example). |
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| Lilith |
Democracy doesnt come overnight anywhere.
First step though, is usually taking the proverbial foot out of the backside of your fellow countrymen and women long enough too realise its not worth being savages. |
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| Moongoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Now that there's some actual 'freedom', the infighting between the local warlords / religious sects can now play itself out.
You'd have to be a complete idiot in thinking that wasn't going to happen; just look at ANY democratic country and you'll see that pattern; why so be shocked about the obvious?
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I wouldn't count on it playing out any time soon. this fighting could go on longer than any of us can imagine. Just look what happened in the balkans after Tito died (though he wasn't a cruel dictator, but he kept the country together like no one else could). All hell broke loose, people that were friends before started killing each other. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Democracy doesnt come overnight anywhere.
First step though, is usually taking the proverbial foot out of the backside of your fellow countrymen and women long enough too realise its not worth being savages. |
I agree, however I do believe it was most certainly the fault of the U.S. to fail to understand some of the basic history of Iraq - namely, that these sectarian wars have gone on long before Saddam's rule and the likelihood that they will continue further without stabilization (which realistically may not have ever occurred no matter how hard we tried to intervene).
Yes, Saddam's rule sucked - yes he killed, raped, and pillaged hundreds of thousands of his people during his rule. The sad reality, however, is that his dictatorship did stabilize the sectarian fighting, at least temporarily. That doesn't mean I like the guy and his means of ruling, but that was the reality. I think we (the U.S.) grossly underestimated to the extreme how difficult this task of walking into a nation, destroying the out of it, dismantling decades of a stabilized dictatorshipt and completely gutting a government, and THEN attempt to rebuild the entire infrastructure of the nation. Of course it didn't help that we kicked out so many former government officials who actually had more experience and could have assisted with the structure with better efficiency, but that's all gravy now anyway.
To me it was the sheer egocentristic view of the neoconservatives who wistfully allowed their ideological views supercede both reality and history, not to forget deliberately ignoring any and all counterevidence of their claims of Saddam's WMD arsenal.
Oh yeah - remember that? Gee, wasn't that the ORIGINAL ing reason why we went there? Funny that. I almost forgot myself. Luckily Senator Rockefeller hasn't forgotten on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Hopefully he'll give my Senator Roberts (KS) a nice reminder of that little tidbit that Roberts promised to finish in a timely manner. But I digress.
But to me it was ideology trumping reality, and we had the unfortunate mishap of those neocon dips being in control of our government. That's what happens when you have unchecked power running both the Executive and the Legislative, not to mention taking full advantage of a horrible event on our own soil like 9/11 and using it as a strange and unrelated means of invading a country that had nothing to do with that event in the ing first place.
So do we have some blame to share? Damn straight we do. Do the Iraqis? Well yeah, of course - but Jesus they've been fighting each other for ing centuries now. How ing idiotic of us not to know what kind of a wasp's nest we were walking into? Not only that, but we took a ing bat with us. Do you expect the neocons and this Administration to take any blame for their actions?
Umm, sure. Do I crap flying monkeys? |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I agree, however I do believe it was most certainly the fault of the U.S. to fail to understand some of the basic history of Iraq - namely, that these sectarian wars have gone on long before Saddam's rule and the likelihood that they will continue further without stabilization (which realistically may not have ever occurred no matter how hard we tried to intervene).
Yes, Saddam's rule sucked - yes he killed, raped, and pillaged hundreds of thousands of his people during his rule. The sad reality, however, is that his dictatorship did stabilize the sectarian fighting, at least temporarily. That doesn't mean I like the guy and his means of ruling, but that was the reality. I think we (the U.S.) grossly underestimated to the extreme how difficult this task of walking into a nation, destroying the out of it, dismantling decades of a stabilized dictatorshipt and completely gutting a government, and THEN attempt to rebuild the entire infrastructure of the nation. Of course it didn't help that we kicked out so many former government officials who actually had more experience and could have assisted with the structure with better efficiency, but that's all gravy now anyway.
To me it was the sheer egocentristic view of the neoconservatives who wistfully allowed their ideological views supercede both reality and history, not to forget deliberately ignoring any and all counterevidence of their claims of Saddam's WMD arsenal.
Oh yeah - remember that? Gee, wasn't that the ORIGINAL ing reason why we went there? Funny that. I almost forgot myself. Luckily Senator Rockefeller hasn't forgotten on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Hopefully he'll give my Senator Roberts (KS) a nice reminder of that little tidbit that Roberts promised to finish in a timely manner. But I digress.
But to me it was ideology trumping reality, and we had the unfortunate mishap of those neocon dips being in control of our government. That's what happens when you have unchecked power running both the Executive and the Legislative, not to mention taking full advantage of a horrible event on our own soil like 9/11 and using it as a strange and unrelated means of invading a country that had nothing to do with that event in the ing first place.
So do we have some blame to share? Damn straight we do. Do the Iraqis? Well yeah, of course - but Jesus they've been fighting each other for ing centuries now. How ing idiotic of us not to know what kind of a wasp's nest we were walking into? Not only that, but we took a ing bat with us. Do you expect the neocons and this Administration to take any blame for their actions?
Umm, sure. Do I crap flying monkeys? |
Other than the obvious trolls in here, I have to concede to Opus regarding his point about grossly underestimating the extremist Jihadi culture in which they stepped into.
Is it safe to assume that we're pretty much all in agreement on this point?
What I'm not so sure about, and what we don't hear enough on, is the rest of the Iraqi NON-jihadi types.
THESE are the people I'm guessing that the West were banking on to help straighten things out for themselves. While there are those Iraqis out there signing up to restore order, the mass majority (or so the MSM wants us to believe) seem content on hiding and being lead by the nose by the next dictator.
Why? Maybe because they've never known anything different.
Maybe they don't understand that freedom has to be won, protected and not handed to them.
They need to understand that if they don't seize their own future, they accept their fate that others are more than willing to set for them. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Other than the obvious trolls in here, I have to concede to Opus regarding his point about grossly underestimating the extremist Jihadi culture in which they stepped into.
Is it safe to assume that we're pretty much all in agreement on this point?
What I'm not so sure about, and what we don't hear enough on, is the rest of the Iraqi NON-jihadi types.
THESE are the people I'm guessing that the West were banking on to help straighten things out for themselves. While there are those Iraqis out there signing up to restore order, the mass majority (or so the MSM wants us to believe) seem content on hiding and being lead by the nose by the next dictator.
Why? Maybe because they've never known anything different.
Maybe they don't understand that freedom has to be won, protected and not handed to them.
They need to understand that if they don't seize their own future, they accept their fate that others are more than willing to set for them. |
LOL |
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| shaolin_Z |
| The leaders and people in places of overt and covert power reponsible for their contribution to it yes, and their support base. But that's not going to happen. The Don doesn't get wacked in his own neighborhood when he's got his subjects obedient or passive, or, put another way, in line. And the entire world is the Don's neighborhood. |
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