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you're all sinners! (pg. 5)
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| Sunsnail |
ty 4chan |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
come on lira, you know better than that. what you dont see is anti-theists organising and trying to enforce their views in politics. big big difference imo. |
I fail to imagine what exactly an anti-theist organisation would try to impose in politics — there's a clear separation of the State and the Church already, isn't there? As a matter of fact, that wasn't part of my point at all, as I'm talking about the individual level.
The intolerance shown by some anti-theist individuals, such as those Andrea mentioned, is not much different in quality from those of hardcore believers... they're completely unable of sustaining their point of view in a debate: ripping a bible up is an act of despair (and/or a provocation), rather than a good argument. How is that different from a preacher yelling and resorting to circular reasoning?
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
"open-minded" is a catchcry for people that think not possessing an informed opinion is somehow a virtue. do you think anybody that has made their mind up about something is automatically "close-minded"? coz thats just silly. |
No, mate, that's called being aware of human cognitive fallibility. Do you really think you can reach absolute knowledge on anything? coz thats intellectual dishonesty ;) |
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| tranceDJ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
I fail to imagine what exactly an anti-theist organisation would try to impose in politics — there's a clear separation of the State and the Church already, isn't there? As a matter of fact, that wasn't part of my point at all, as I'm talking about the individual level.
The intolerance shown by some anti-theist individuals, such as those Andrea mentioned, is not much different in quality from those of hardcore believers... they're completely unable of sustaining their point of view in a debate: ripping a bible up is an act of despair (and/or a provocation), rather than a good argument. How is that different from a preacher yelling and resorting to circular reasoning?
No, mate, that's called being aware of human cognitive fallibility. Do you really think you can reach absolute knowledge on anything? coz thats intellectual dishonesty ;) |
In the end I think it's difficult if not impossible to claim whether or not there is a God (either side can provide no conclusive evidence)...I mean, we can't really know so why not simply say that we cannot. People are so hung up on it they miss the real point IMO of religion which is to treat each other and ourselves well. Debating the existence of God isn't going to get you anywhere. |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by tranceDJ
In the end I think it's difficult if not impossible to claim whether or not there is a God (either side can provide no conclusive evidence)...I mean, we can't really know so why not simply say that we cannot. People are so hung up on it they miss the real point IMO of religion which is to treat each other and ourselves well. Debating the existence of God isn't going to get you anywhere. |
Yep. It's only when extremists from both sides start to clash that we encounter problems.
People with belief in God, or people with no belief usually don't create any problems, but once they start to force it on others then it spirals out of control. |
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| tranceDJ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
Yep. It's only when extremists from both sides start to clash that we encounter problems.
People with belief in God, or people with no belief usually don't create any problems, but once they start to force it on others then it spirals out of control. |
Exactly, offering your opinion is one thing but people are too quick to go beyond that and attempt to force their beliefs on others. No one really knows who's right, who's wrong, or if anyone's right for that matter...so whats the big in deal? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
I fail to imagine what exactly an anti-theist organisation would try to impose in politics — there's a clear separation of the State and the Church already, isn't there? As a matter of fact, that wasn't part of my point at all, as I'm talking about the individual level. |
well, the separation of church and state is one of the biggest jokes in liberal democracies, especially the US. the problem with your assertion that youre talking about the "individual" level (which i completely support), is that it is very seldom left at an individual level. religious faith isn't something that likes to stay in its "box" very often. indeed, how many parties hold sway in many countries around the world, aligned with people of certain religious groups?
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
The intolerance shown by some anti-theist individuals, such as those Andrea mentioned, is not much different in quality from those of hardcore believers... they're completely unable of sustaining their point of view in a debate: ripping a bible up is an act of despair (and/or a provocation), rather than a good argument. How is that different from a preacher yelling and resorting to circular reasoning? |
oh, im not standing up for these morons, and i certainly dont support someone tearing up a bible, tho to be honest, if its THEIR bible, i dont have a problem with it either.
| quote: | | Originally posted by Lira No, mate, that's called being aware of human cognitive fallibility. Do you really think you can reach absolute knowledge on anything? coz thats intellectual dishonesty ;) |
to be honest, i find arguments like this to be serial wank-a-thons, good for students at college or philosophy professors justifying their tenure at university. in the sense that we might never be able to categorically state we have an absolute knowledge of something, then yes i suspect you are right. if though it is used as a poor answer to ignore any "truth" then no, i think its bollocks. i can't prove fairies don't live on the dark side of the moon, but that isn't sufficient for "keeping an open mind" about their existence. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by tranceDJ
In the end I think it's difficult if not impossible to claim whether or not there is a God (either side can provide no conclusive evidence)...I mean, we can't really know so why not simply say that we cannot. People are so hung up on it they miss the real point IMO of religion which is to treat each other and ourselves well. Debating the existence of God isn't going to get you anywhere. |
Indeed, and that's why I'm happy being an agnostic :p |
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| Fledz |
Another point to make is that non-religious zealots are just as bad as religious zealots.
All too often and non-believers quick to jump on religion and blast it, then tell everyone how there is no God, religion is ed up and ruins everything and they are right, while all believers are wrong.
Talk about hypocrisy. Nothing wrong with making a point and believing it but it's wrong to force it on others.
An extremist is an extremist, no matter what their beliefs.
My favourite ones are the people who go "There is no God. You're all stupid for believing it. I'm right because you can see just how religion is. All it does is cause problems. If everyone was like me then there would be no problems as there would be no religion to anything up". Yea, because that really proves everything :rolleyes: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
Another point to make is that non-religious zealots are just as bad as religious zealots. |
i disagree. us non-religious zealots dont spend our time manipulating the public sphere for our own religious ends.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
All too often and non-believers quick to jump on religion and blast it, then tell everyone how there is no God, religion is ed up and ruins everything and they are right, while all believers are wrong. |
i think thats overly simplistic too. there is nothing wrong with criticising a belief system that causes harm. for instance, even if i did believe in god, i would still harshly criticise organised religion, because it IS ed.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
Talk about hypocrisy. Nothing wrong with making a point and believing it but it's wrong to force it on others. |
how on earth do atheists force their opinion on others? ive never been woken up on the weekend with an atheist at my door hoping to chat to me about the wonders of no life after death ;) and atheists dont adhere to some archaic text that says they have to go round spreading their godless faith either :p |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
well, the separation of church and state is one of the biggest jokes in liberal democracies, especially the US. the problem with your assertion that youre talking about the "individual" level (which i completely support), is that it is very seldom left at an individual level. religious faith isn't something that likes to stay in its "box" very often. indeed, how many parties hold sway in many countries around the world, aligned with people of certain religious groups? |
Good question: In countries with a supposed separation of the State and the Church, how many religious political parties are there?
As far as I know, there's just one religious political party here in Brazil, and it became religious so it could sport the word "socialist" without much hassle :p
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
oh, im not standing up for these morons, and i certainly dont support someone tearing up a bible, tho to be honest, if its THEIR bible, i dont have a problem with it either. |
So, they're the ones I'm criticising here :p
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
to be honest, i find arguments like this to be serial wank-a-thons, good for students at college or philosophy professors justifying their tenure at university. in the sense that we might never be able to categorically state we have an absolute knowledge of something, then yes i suspect you are right. if though it is used as a poor answer to ignore any "truth" then no, i think its bollocks. i can't prove fairies don't live on the dark side of the moon, but that isn't sufficient for "keeping an open mind" about their existence. |
I see where you're coming from. However, there's a particularly tricky problem with God: people can't even agree on what God is, so it does leave some room for a "Does something we can call God exist in imaginable any form?" kind of debate, which is far broader than asking "Do fairies exist?". I do agree with you, though, that both debates are utterly pointless :p |
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| Arbiter |
And when I shout "Curse all cowardly devils in you who like to whine and fold their hands and pray," they shout, "Zarathustra is godless." And their teachers of resignation shout it especially; but it is precisely into their ears that I like to shout "Yes, I am Zarathustra the godless!" These teachers of resignation! Whatever is small and sick and scabby, they crawl to like lice; and only my nausea prevents me from squashing them.
Well then, this is my preaching for their ears: I am Zarathustra the godless, who speaks: "Who is more godless than I, that I may delight in his instruction?" |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
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And thus began Zarathustra's downgoing :p |
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