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Hugo...doing it again. (pg. 41)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
didn't Venezuela confiscate oil production facilities of a few American and European companies? the Venezuelan people didn't own the properties that were confiscated. By nationalizing certain industries (especially oil and telecom) Chavez has limited the country's ability to attract foreign investment, which brings with it foreign innovations. |
The Venezuelan people originally owned the oil industry (don't know about telecoms but if it's like my country then they will have as well), the rich elite that got into power in the 80s stole it off them and redistributed it to Venezuela's rich only (and their foreign friends). Chavez simply reclaimed the industry to its rightful owners...
And please, can we use the term "renationalise" rather than "confiscate" as that does not take into account facts from Venezuela's history... |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And please, can we use the term "renationalise" rather than "confiscate" as that does not take into account facts from Venezuela's history... |
six of one, half-dozen of the other. The primary beneficiary of all of this is Chavez and his cronies, NOT the millions of Venezuelans who are still living well below the poverty line despite all of the nationalizations in the name of socialism and welfare. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
six of one, half-dozen of the other. The primary beneficiary of all of this is Chavez and his cronies, NOT the millions of Venezuelans who are still living well below the poverty line despite all of the nationalizations in the name of socialism and welfare. |
I think you must be getting confused with your heroes in Saudi Arabia ;)
BTW, what is your opinion on the Saudi regime? Up there in the same bracket as you view Chavez? |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I think you must be getting confused with your heroes in Saudi Arabia ;)
BTW, what is your opinion on the Saudi regime? Up there in the same bracket as you view Chavez? |
I haven't developed a strong opinion of them, and as such haven't spoken very much about them. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
I haven't developed a strong opinion of them, and as such haven't spoken very much about them. |
You got any idea why you've not developed a strong opinion on the Saudi regime yet have a very strong opinion of Chavez? |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You got any idea why you've not developed a strong opinion on the Saudi regime yet have a very strong opinion of Chavez? |
Nobody likes a know-it-all. It must be that biased U.S. media feeding me lies and bull. What is your opinion of the Indonesian government? |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The Venezuelan people originally owned the oil industry (don't know about telecoms but if it's like my country then they will have as well), the rich elite that got into power in the 80s stole it off them and redistributed it to Venezuela's rich only (and their foreign friends). Chavez simply reclaimed the industry to its rightful owners...
And please, can we use the term "renationalise" rather than "confiscate" as that does not take into account facts from Venezuela's history... |
call it whatever you want, but the fact is that Chavez took from western oil companies billions of dollars of capital investments without compensation. in any other situation that would be theft. i have no problem with a country wanting to nationalize an industry, but, if they are taking property from private parties (which was lawfully acquired/developed/etc..) they should be provided compensation. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
call it whatever you want, but the fact is that Chavez took from western oil companies billions of dollars of capital investments without compensation. in any other situation that would be theft. i have no problem with a country wanting to nationalize an industry, but, if they are taking property from private citizens they should be provided compensation |
And vica versa, the rightist government that originally stole the oil wealth from the people and sold it off to your foreign investors didn't compensate the people of Venezuela but allowed the rich elite to enjoy the benefits.
It's swings and roundabouts mate, works both ways... |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Nobody likes a know-it-all. It must be that biased U.S. media feeding me lies and bull. What is your opinion of the Indonesian government? |
To be fair I expected you to have an opinion, one way or another, on Saudi Arabia. I suspect that you would view the Saudi regime as being 'better' than Chavez' regime and would have been interested to go down that route. However, if you don't know about Saudi Arabia it appears I was pissing in the wind! |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And vica versa, the rightist government that originally stole the oil wealth from the people and sold it off to your foreign investors didn't compensate the people of Venezuela but allowed the rich elite to enjoy the benefits.
It's swings and roundabouts mate, works both ways... |
why is the oil wealth property of the people? I don't know much about venezuelan history, but if they have a system of private property similar to the US the oil is property of the owner of the land above the mineral reserve. obviously you think it belongs to the people considering UK oil is nationalized, and i have a different opinion being i'm from the US. the question is more rhetorical than anything else.
EDIT: I have actually been warming to the idea of nationalizing oil resources. My only issue with this is I also believe the government sould compensate citizens for property which it confiscates (of course, at the present moment a substantial amount of american oil reserves are owned by private citizens). That does not mean I like the idea of nationalizing petroleum production facilities.
in any event, the correct answer is somewhere in the middle. without venezuela there wouldn't be resources to exploit; without the western oil companies venezuela wouldn't have the production capabilities. Like i said, i have no problem with venezuela decided they want to nationalize oil reserves; that's their right. My problem is that venezuela essentially stole from the western companies the production facilities and technology that was used to exploit those resources. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
why is the oil wealth property of the people? I don't know much about venezuelan history, but if they have a system of private property similar to the US the oil is property of the owner of the land above the mineral reserve. obviously you think it belongs to the people considering UK oil is nationalized, and i have a different opinion being i'm from the US. the question is more rhetorical than anything else. |
Well "owned by the people" is a concept. But it's a concept that might not be as well understood in America as it might be elsewhere. It means the state operates an industry and revenues made off it contribute to the states budget (which in turn is spent for the benefit of the people). It's like our NHS. Everybody contributes to it and everybody receives the benefits of it. It's paid for by the people for the people!
(BTW, our oil industry is not nationalised as it was privatised during the Thatcher years)
| quote: | | in any event, the correct answer is somewhere in the middle. without venezuela there wouldn't be resources to exploit; without the western oil companies venezuela wouldn't have the production capabilities. Like i said, i have no problem with venezuela decided they want to nationalize oil reserves; that's their right. My problem is that venezuela essentially stole from the western companies the production facilities and technology that was used to exploit those resources. |
I don't really think you can say that only the private sector has the ability to exploit oil resources! |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
EDIT: I have actually been warming to the idea of nationalizing oil resources. My only issue with this is I also believe the government sould compensate citizens for property which it confiscates (of course, at the present moment a substantial amount of american oil reserves are owned by private citizens). That does not mean I like the idea of nationalizing petroleum production facilities. |
I have no problem with the government compensating shareholders of nationalised companies (within acceptable limits of course) |
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