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Would the world be better off with out religion? (pg. 2)
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| {b.s.e.} |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
LOL, if there was no religion, nothing would change. There would still be war, hunger, disease, and hardship. Atheists are not different from theists in their brutality so everyone who said the world would be better off without religion just haven't got a clue... |
You're right. :/ Still, it's a step in the right direction. :wtf:
"Why get rid of religion, nothing will change," is a pretty lazy perspective, in my opinion. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| I like art. And one man's religion is another man's philosophy. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by {b.s.e.}
You're right. :/ Still, it's a step in the right direction. :wtf:
"Why get rid of religion, nothing will change," is a pretty lazy perspective, in my opinion. |
Do you know what it will take to eliminate religion? Let's take a look at our good commie friends Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao. Both tried to suppress all organized religion. What's the alternative for the faithful? The state. For religion to be eliminated would take the most oppressive state to exist and force people to change their views...OR ELSE...off to the gulag with you...
I'll take freedom of religion to oppressive suppression of religion any day. Really, even imagining the eradication of religion is a really STUPID idea...:rolleyes: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
- religion is an outdated archaic system unfit for modern man's / woman's 'spiritual' needs? Is an ethical system derivative of religious teachings (or morality) completely bankrupt? Or are there only certain principles or aspects of it that are problematic?
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its definitely archaic. when you compare liberal freedoms to religious doctrine there's quite a difference. i wouldnt go so far to accuse it of moral bankruptcy however. that's more akin to a person rather than a faith. any or all principles can be problematic, but that will always depend on the adherents, rather than the religion itself. the problem being that you can find whatever you're looking for in any spiritual teaching.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
religion necessarily detract from an individuals intellectual faculties? Would an individual necessarily be more intellectualy developed in the absense of religion? |
it certainly can but i wouldnt always say that it does. people like your good self or moral hazard are excellent examples of people whose intellectual faculties havent been harmed at all by your faith. but there is no question that faith can be misused to harm intellectual endeavour, intelligent design being an obvious example.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
religious doctrines are inherintly violent or barbaric in their teachings? |
like i have already said, people can find whatever they're looking for in spiritual teachings. if violence is what they want, it is what they will get. the greater problem is the feelings of self righteousness that sometimes go hand in hand with faith. its very difficult to convince someone of the error of their ways when god is on their side.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
many or most of the problems today exist because of religion, or religion at least complicates matters? How much do you think religion contributes to make matters worse? Would the world would be [as close as possible to] ideal if everyone was an atheist? |
unquestionably, religion complicates many of the other non-religious issues the world has to deal with. what were the cultural differences between the catholics and protestants in N ireland? how about more recently and the cultural differences between peoples in iraq? and yes, i think there would be less problems if atheism was commonplace - identifying with a set of unprovable superstitions is just one more way for human beings to be divided.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
religion is devoid of any positive aspects or and is entirely negative? Has religion made any positive contributions to humaninty? |
impossible to quantify on a personal level (which is where i believe religion plays its most positive role). wasn't the printing press designed in part to bring the bible to the people? i suppose that's something! but ultimately, the positive contributions are outweighed by the negative though i wouldnt begin to judge the positive things it might do on an individual level for private spiritual needs.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
is there any distinction between the teachings or philosophy of religious texts and the actions of it's self-proclaimed followers? |
no.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
religion is by it's very nature a system of control? Or is it simply more susceptible to abuse? Is religion is the only doctrinal system of control known to humankind? Would you consider any secular doctrines [weather economic, philosophical, or political] to be abusable as means of control? |
it can be a system of control. but i dont really think the pope does a speech "now i will force the entire un-married world to go without contraception mwahahahaha!". but it if you are a person of deep faith it would be pretty hard to ignore someone that speaks to god on your behalf. and if someone is willing to believe that is possible then they're willing to believe anything arent they?
again, its hard to reason or rationalise with people that firmly believe god agrees with them. and i would suggest that this make religion fundamentally more dangerous than any other philosophical doctrine (that isn't something akin to nazism obviously). religion is peculiar in this regard when contrasted against the other isms.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
these question are too broad to be meanigful in the absense of being specific to a a particular religion? |
not at all. they all affect the public sphere in similar ways.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
the occult [and escoteric arts or practices] are fundamentally similar to religion or identical in nature?
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i have no idea, i know nothing of the occult. but i would guess that when religious belief is mixed with a worship of "evil" then there are bound to be problems. you never hear of those peace-loving vampire cults do you? its always the ones that go eating their victims ;) |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zild
Higher education is a business not a charity. |
wrong....a business operates to generate profits. catholic schools (and most other schools), by contrast, can not generate a profit otherwise they would lose their status as organizations not subject to taxation. and all catholic schools are not for profits.
in other words, catholic schools and most other schools, generate enough income to offset expenses, with little money left over. furthermore, any money left over needs to be plowed back into the school, it is not distributed for any other function. there are no business owners, shareholders, etc... |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
LOL, if there was no religion, nothing would change. There would still be war, hunger, disease, and hardship. Atheists are not different from theists in their brutality so everyone who said the world would be better off without religion just haven't got a clue... |
correct. religion is only another excuse for people to hate each other. it has less to do with the religion than it does the fact that people, for some reason, like to hate other people. |
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| {b.s.e.} |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
wrong....a business operates to generate profits. catholic schools, by contrast, can not generate a profit otherwise they would lose their status as organizations not subject to taxation. and all catholic schools are not for profits. |
What about televangelism? :wtf: |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by {b.s.e.}
What about televangelism? :wtf: |
Look at it this way...
It is not guns that kill people...People kill people... |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by {b.s.e.}
What about televangelism? :wtf: |
i have no idea what they do. i'm talking about catholic schools. that whole TV religion stuff seems like a scam to me. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Religion has also given mankind a strong sense of morality that I don't think we'd have otherwise. |
yeah, im going to have to go and disagree with you here george. religion might have had a strong hand in applying "justice" for perceived moral trespasses, but laws and a sense of right and wrong are concepts derived from reason. how do we decide which of the religious laws to obey, and which ones to ignore? rationality. so if we're using reason to pick our way through the moral laws of our religious culture/generation, then what role is religion playing here exactly, asides from muddying the water and giving the self righteous an excuse to tell others what to do?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
There is a definate trend that the more a society moves away from religion the less morality that society has, and all the problems like crime that come with it (certainly true in the UK). |
im sorry? do you think the UK is more or less violent now than it was say, during your period of convict transportation? i think its a pretty problematic argument to make that your less religious society today is more criminally-minded than at any time previously, and that this rise in criminality is due to a rise in religious indifference. would you say iraq is a religious society? would you say that there is more or less conflict in iraq due to religious influence?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
That doesn't have to mean that the society was whacko fundamentalist like many in America are, it's just a guide to live your life without being a total bastard. |
i dont see a single reason to think that people are incapable of acting like a non-bastard because they can appreciate the consequences for others due to their actions, rather than a fear of or adherence to the invisible man in the sky. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by {b.s.e.}
What about televangelism? :wtf: |
The purer stuff just uses mass media as a conduit to spread "the truth" to more people. Much like Trancer uses the internet to spread his version of "truth".
As far as profits go, the Rev. Rick Warren (whom I actually respect a great deal) wrote a book that argued that becoming rich is not a sin. Dying rich is. His church and various ministries make millions every year, but he invests it back into local communities in various ways, which is the point of true Christian evangelism. |
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| {b.s.e.} |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
The purer stuff just uses mass media as a conduit to spread "the truth" to more people. Much like Trancer uses the internet to spread his version of "truth".
As far as profits go, the Rev. Rick Warren (whom I actually respect a great deal) wrote a book that argued that becoming rich is not a sin. Dying rich is. His church and various ministries make millions every year, but he invests it back into local communities in various ways, which is the point of true Christian evangelism. |
That doesn't excuse Jimmy Swaggart :P |
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