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Would the world be better off with out religion? (pg. 3)
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| Floorfiller |
lol at religion being a positive force of education. what about the historical oppression of learning by the church? doesn't sound very positive to me. maybe they do a good job at indoctrinating, but that's about it....
and as for humanity not being any better off without religion, i don't necessarily agree. you're assuming people should be forced to give up religion, which you are right is not a better system. But what if people freely give up religion? Then i don't see any downside to it...Now that isn't very realistic, but we would be better off as a society... |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorfiller
lol at religion being a positive force of education. |
the catholic church operates about 200 colleges in the US including Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Boston College. real funny. the church operates some pretty good schools that do substantial research. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the catholic church operates about 200 colleges in the US including Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Boston College. real funny. the church operates some pretty good schools that do substantial research. |
and there are just as many important non-religious colleges out there...so what is your point?
you act like there wouldn't be learning without the church |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorfiller
and there are just as many important non-religious colleges out there...so what is your point? |
the question wasn't whether there are more religious educational institutions. see exchange from first page.
this was posted:
| quote: | Originally posted by {b.s.e.}
Well, outside of establishing a murderous patriarchal society, what else has it done for us? Get rid of it.
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this was my response.
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
dumb comment!
the biggest contribution is probably education. the catholic church educates more people than any other organization, millions of people in the US alone (and not in religious education, but in science, math, etc...). see link below:
LIST OF CATHOLIC UNIVERSITIES
Churches feed homeless people, provide support to the general population in times of emergency (9/11, katrina, etc...), and many also help in third world countries.
CATHOLIC CHARITIES |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the question wasn't whether there are more religious educational institutions. see exchange from first page.
this was posted:
this was my response. |
Well, all such institutions are funded by the government in australia, so i dont see it so much as a religious-inspired education system as I do a publicly-funded one administered by the catholic church. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Well, all such institutions are funded by the government in australia, so i dont see it so much as a religious-inspired education system as I do a publicly-funded one administered by the catholic church. |
the US government is severely constrained on how much support it can give to a catholic school. The government can fund medical research and other social projects at the school. However, the government can't provide general funding for the school. Catholic schools in the US are largely independent of government.
Even if the catholic church simply administers the school, how is that not a good thing? They aren't profiting from operating the school. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
Even if the catholic church simply administers the school, how is that not a good thing? They aren't profiting from operating the school. |
i wasn't saying it was a bad thing! just saying that i certainly wouldnt laud it as a positive impact of religion, given that the success of "private" schools is due to the australian taxation and political system NOT catholicism.
and yes, someone most assuredly is profiting from the operation of the school. it IS a business after all and they do charge fees on top of their subsidies. |
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| DJ Eco |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
the catholic church operates about 200 colleges in the US including Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Boston College. real funny. the church operates some pretty good schools that do substantial research. |
I usually agree with most of the things you say, and this would be one of them. However, college is just another business and the fact that most of these colleges cost $40,000 a year not including room-and-board make$$$$$ me wonder where the Church's head i$$$$ at.
The Church owns the best real estate in the world.
The Church takes tithes from the poor and middle-class.
The Church charges $40,000 for liberal arts education just like private schools.
I agree with your argument that not all religion is some crazy fundamentalist nutjob network. I think some people simply need religion in their life. But like with anything, it should be revered in moderation. I stress the "like with anything" part. Too much of anything is no good, and that applies to EVERYTHING. I'm Atheist and it's easy to blame religion for the world's problems, as sometimes it seems to be the case. But let's blame man. Man has tendencies and wants and urges. Man would wage wars and cause terror with or without religion. The real question should be, "Would the world be better off without man?" if we follow this line of thought. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i wasn't saying it was a bad thing! just saying that i certainly wouldnt laud it as a positive impact of religion, given that the success of "private" schools is due to the australian taxation and political system NOT catholicism.
and yes, someone most assuredly is profiting from the operation of the school. it IS a business after all and they do charge fees on top of their subsidies. |
my point was that catholic colleges provide education and jobs to many people. in and of itself, that is a positive thing. Additionally, the fact that there are so many catholic colleges in the US means there is more competition for students, which in turn means schools will offer a better education. Catholic schools in the US do this without a profit motive; it is not a business. The US government assures that it is not profiting under our taxing structure. i don't know why people continually insist there is a profit motive. the church may benefit from continuing support from former students, but that doesn't make it a business.
the catholic church doesn't need to form colleges to educate people. because they do so, that means the catholic church is positively contributing to society. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
my point was that catholic colleges provide education and jobs to many people. in and of itself, that is a positive thing. Additionally, the fact that there are so many catholic colleges in the US means there is more competition for students, which in turn means schools will offer a better education. Catholic schools in the US do this without a profit motive; it is not a business. The US government assures that it is not profiting under our taxing structure. i don't know why people continually insist there is a profit motive. the church may benefit from continuing support from former students, but that doesn't make it a business.
the catholic church doesn't need to form colleges to educate people. because they do so, that means the catholic church is positively contributing to society. |
If its not a profit motive, why arent your university costs more affordable (ie what DJ eco just alluded to)? |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Eco
However, college is just another business and the fact that most of these colleges cost $40,000 a year not including room-and-board make$$$$$ me wonder where the Church's head i$$$$ at.
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The Church charges $40,000 for liberal arts education just like private schools.
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do you have any idea how much it costs to operate a college? I for one, do not. however, professors don't work for free, admin staff doesn't work for free, and the buildings don't maintain themselves. i have to believe that the catholic church isn't lying to the US government when it applies for not for profit status. in order to get not for profit status, they can't have a profit motive, and they can't earn significant profits. I do know that many catholic schools don't provide huge lecture classes like state schools, so they don't benefit from lower cost through economies of scale.
also, most private schools are also not for profits.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Eco
The Church takes tithes from the poor and middle-class.
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that's who goes to church. you can't expect the church to turn down money. they also don't make people give money. i assume that the church expects people to give what they can afford.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
If its not a profit motive, why arent your university costs more affordable (ie what DJ eco just alluded to)? |
i think i respond to this question above. |
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| DJ Eco |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
do you have any idea how much it costs to operate a college? I for one, do not. however, professors don't work for free, admin staff doesn't work for free, and the buildings don't maintain themselves. i have to believe that the catholic church isn't lying to the US government when it applies for not for profit status. in order to get not for profit status, they can't have a profit motive, and they can't earn significant profits. I do know that many catholic schools don't provide huge lecture classes like state schools, so they don't benefit from lower cost through economies of scale. |
You're right and I don't know how it works out behind the scenes, nor do I know the cost of running a school. But when Rutgers costs $10,000 and is a relatively good school, especially for a state school, I don't know how the Fordhams or LaSalle's, etc., get off charging $40,000, just doesn't make sense.
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
that's who goes to church. you can't expect the church to turn down money. they also don't make people give money. i assume that the church expects people to give what they can afford. |
I went to Catholic middle school and in my 6th grade there, they upped the tuition prices almost $2000 from one year to another. Then they mailed out a package of 52 (for the # of weeks) envelopes with "suggested tithing amounts" which asked for 5-10% of weekly income. Those who paid that 10%+ got their annual tuition brought back to what it was the year before.... LOL! My parents made me go to Church with my brother and we'd drop off the envelope and then leave. |
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