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FAO Anti-Zionists. Serious question (pg. 6)
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Israel is paranoid with fear and is unlikely to give up any security (demographic balance, resources, etc.) without a major assurance from Palestine, which isn't forthcoming with Hamas in power.
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Very true |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
So I don't have a plan, largely because I'm not convinced the time is ripe for one. |
fair point. |
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| Kinezi |
Israel 'pretends' to be paranoid with fear..
And yes they 'will' be paranoid with fear once Iran gets its nuke... and hopeflly they get is asap. |
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kinezi
Israel 'pretends' to be paranoid with fear..
And yes they 'will' be paranoid with fear once Iran gets its nuke... and hopeflly they get is asap. |
If Iran gets a nuke, watch for the entire Middle East to go paranoid. It may drive The Arab League to persuade all 22 Arab countries to make peace agreements with Israel.
Oh, and if Iran were to try and use a nuke on Israel or another neighbor you can be sure that most Iranians will then turn paranoid with fear as well, in anticipation for a deadly retaliation. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
I wonder how many people here or in the world in general would be so concerned about the Jews if the situation was reversed. Israel would still be mostly desert with ing huts, palestinians would still be middle-eastern gypsies that would be opressed by someone else, chances are the palestine (erm Israel) itself would be split between joined countries - syria, jordan, egypt. I doubt you'd have "Palestine" as even their own don't consider palestinians as natives of the land (which in all reality, they are not) |
You make no sense here, the Levant has been populated throughout civilisation and urban centres have grown and grown since. There has also been a constant population and I'm not even sure that there was ever a nomadic culture in the Levant to the same extent as in Arabia even in ancient times. What you've said above is unfounded, unresearched and is full of lies peddled by your fellow Zionists
| quote: | | I just find it ironic that many of the closet antisemites here hide their hatred and agenda behind "zionist" and "jewish niazzis" statements - it's ing sick. they fool noone, I'm afraid. |
That would make you a hypocrite would it not? You come on here, regurgitate lies from Zionists designed to portray Palestinians (and Arabs) as sub-human and uncivilised, yet when you perceive others to be doing the same about your race/religion you speak out. Personally, I don't think anyone on here is anti-Semitic, and to suggest that people's criticisms of Israel are based on prejudice just renders the phrase "anti-Semitic" as meaningless, when it shouldn't be
| quote: | | I dare you to name the last time Israelis went into a Palestinian settlement and blew themselves up in a public place, killing dozens. Please do tell when was the last time Israeli force had to move in UNPROVOKED. Sure, you'll say that - well, they are there now but again - we'll be beating the same ing dead horse, trying to convince one another that egg came before the chicken or chicken before the egg. |
Altho I have no doubt that countless examples of the above can be found, I don't think they are relevant to this thread. You started this thread to find out what critics of Israeli policy would do to solve the crisis, which I think was a good idea. However, it is becoming more and more apparent that you are disinterested in people's opinions and the real reason for starting this thread was to to find solutions but merely to excuse Israeli actions...
| quote: | | I highly doubt that an organization like Hizbollah would be dismantled after Israel returned Golan Heights - they are too good of a weapon in Iran's middle eastern ambitions. Why stop at Israel when you can dominate Syria and Lebanon... and why the not Jordan... and Egypt. Make no mistake about it - Iran won't stop at Israel, if one day by some chance Israel seized to exist. |
It's extremely possible that Hizballah won't disarm after the Golan Heights and Shebaa are returned to Syria and Lebanon. However, Hizballah would serve no further purpose for Syria, and international pressure to disarm would increase as Hizballah itself has said it will not disarm until Shebaa is ceded to Lebanon
| quote: | | Also, Hamas went on the record number of times and officially proclaimed that they will NEVER recognize Israel, they may have a temporary truce but Israel is their eternal mortal enemy. Correct me if I'm wrong. Besides, we can see how well the dismantlement of settlements worked out for them - it gave them a closer proximity from where to fire upon Israel. |
The IRA does not recognise British control over Northern Ireland, and never will, yet they ceased their terrorist campaign against the UK, there is no reason to suggest this could not also be the outcome for Hamas as well
| quote: | | And let's finally get to the interesting core that no one quite mentions here - even if Palestine existed as a state, it would be torn by civil war by its own factions, much like Iraq is today. These people can't even live in peace with each other. Anyway, back to reality. |
Again, I can use the analogy of Northern Ireland. The population is split in two, but more than in Palestine, by religious as well as political divisions. Now, altho it's by no means settled, it is well on the way to conciliation. There is tensions in Palestine because of the situation the people there find themselves in. Two factions claim to be able to solve the situation and compete for power, but the truth is it is the occupation that is the cause of these problems - end the occupation and tensions will ease up |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You make no sense here, the Levant has been populated throughout civilisation and urban centres have grown and grown since. There has also been a constant population and I'm not even sure that there was ever a nomadic culture in the Levant to the same extent as in Arabia even in ancient times. What you've said above is unfounded, unresearched and is full of lies peddled by your fellow Zionists |
nice comeback, yet you did not answer the question - would you be just as adamant about protecting Jewish rights if the situation was reversed. I think not.
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That would make you a hypocrite would it not? You come on here, regurgitate lies from Zionists designed to portray Palestinians (and Arabs) as sub-human and uncivilised, yet when you perceive others to be doing the same about your race/religion you speak out.
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I did not say that but thanks for paraphrasing me in a way that would suit your purpose. I read you loud and clear - you got babkis.
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Personally, I don't think anyone on here is anti-Semitic, and to suggest that people's criticisms of Israel are based on prejudice just renders the phrase "anti-Semitic" as meaningless, when it shouldn't be |
I would not expect you to go on the record, openly proclaiming your feelings. Who would take a bigot-demagogoue seriously then :rolleyes:
| quote: |
Altho I have no doubt that countless examples of the above can be found, I don't think they are relevant to this thread.
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Please, indulge me - post 3 from say... last 10 years.
| quote: |
You started this thread to find out what critics of Israeli policy would do to solve the crisis, which I think was a good idea. However, it is becoming more and more apparent that you are disinterested in people's opinions and the real reason for starting this thread was to to find solutions but merely to excuse Israeli actions...
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I absolutely need no excuses. My opinion will not change just as yours won't. We're on the opposite sides of the spectrum, as much as opposites can be. There's absolutely nothing in this world that would change that. The difference between you and I is that I want Israel to exist, you don't. I want it to be in peace, you simply want it gone. Even if your outlined plan was met, Israel withdrew, if palestinians and/or other arabs were continuing to kill Jews - you'd just simply ask for more.
Further, even if Israel was no more and Jews were immigrants in "Palestine" and were being persecuted and killed - I doubt we'd see much of condolences, compassion, or anything remotely resembling concern for loss of human lives on your (and your buddies') part. You'd just say - "well, what do you expect? they brought it on themselves".
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It's extremely possible that Hizballah won't disarm after the Golan Heights and Shebaa are returned to Syria and Lebanon. However, Hizballah would serve no further purpose for Syria, and international pressure to disarm would increase as Hizballah itself has said it will not disarm until Shebaa is ceded to Lebanon |
Riiiight. and if you believe that, I got some real estate on Uranus to offer you.
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The IRA does not recognise British control over Northern Ireland, and never will, yet they ceased their terrorist campaign against the UK, there is no reason to suggest this could not also be the outcome for Hamas as well
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as I said - I highly doubt it, given Hamas track record.
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Again, I can use the analogy of Northern Ireland. The population is split in two, but more than in Palestine, by religious as well as political divisions. Now, altho it's by no means settled, it is well on the way to conciliation. There is tensions in Palestine because of the situation the people there find themselves in. Two factions claim to be able to solve the situation and compete for power, but the truth is it is the occupation that is the cause of these problems - end the occupation and tensions will ease up |
ibid. |
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| emc^2 |
I further urge you - name ANY concession that Palestininians have made since Israel turned over a nice chunk of land to them few years ago?
Name ANY initiatives that Hamas has taken to bring peace to their people? They are bunch of corrupt islamists, who only want an Islamic state and line their pocket. I don't even think you'd see anything remotely resembling something like Jordan or Egypt in Israel, were Palestinians to take over. It would be another 4th world hole, a base for Islamic agenda against the rest of the "crussaders". You have absolutely no idea how much of a counter-ballance Israel offers in the region. Were it not for them, you would be sucking a nicely tanned arab a long time ago. But that's ok - pretty soon UK will be absorbed by islamists, much like France. pretty soon Union Jack will have green black and red colors with a Crescent and a star. And you'll be saying not "Cheers mate" but "Salam 'aleikum".
Keep appeasing Georgey. keep appeasing. Just spred 'em wide, crussader dick. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
If Iran gets a nuke, watch for the entire Middle East to go paranoid. It may drive The Arab League to persuade all 22 Arab countries to make peace agreements with Israel.
Oh, and if Iran were to try and use a nuke on Israel or another neighbor you can be sure that most Iranians will then turn paranoid with fear as well, in anticipation for a deadly retaliation. |
Think hard for a second. Don't you think the Iranian high command would know a nuclear strike on Israel would ensure their own destruction many times over? According to MAD...
Mutual assured destruction (MAD; sometimes written as mutually assured destruction) is a doctrine of military strategy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two opposing sides would effectively result in the destruction of both the attacker and the defender.[1] It is based on the theory of deterrence according to which the deployment of strong weapons is essential to threaten the enemy in order to prevent the use of the very same weapons. The strategy is effectively a form of Nash equilibrium, in which both sides are attempting to avoid their worst possible outcome—nuclear annihilation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
I further urge you - name ANY concession that Palestininians have made since Israel turned over a nice chunk of land to them few years ago?
Name ANY initiatives that Hamas has taken to bring peace to their people? They are bunch of corrupt islamists, who only want an Islamic state and line their pocket. I don't even think you'd see anything remotely resembling something like Jordan or Egypt in Israel, were Palestinians to take over. It would be another 4th world hole, a base for Islamic agenda against the rest of the "crussaders". You have absolutely no idea how much of a counter-ballance Israel offers in the region. Were it not for them, you would be sucking a nicely tanned arab a long time ago. But that's ok - pretty soon UK will be absorbed by islamists, much like France. pretty soon Union Jack will have green black and red colors with a Crescent and a star. And you'll be saying not "Cheers mate" but "Salam 'aleikum". |
Islamophobia? :rolleyes: what has Israel done for you personally or to the world for that matter to gain your blinded support? |
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| CHRles |
I'd like to believe that theory holds true. Here's what you may want to keep in mind:
When 9/11 happened dont you think the Taliban knew that as a result the US would in turn go after them and invade Afghanistan? The Taliban and Iran may be sworn ememies, but their view of the US is all too similar.
Not only that, but Iran is one of the main countries that trains suicide bombers. Iran's spiritual leader is of the mindset that the Palestinians "wouldn't mind" sacrificing many of their own in order to rid the world of the zionist state. So hey, instead of Iran launching a nuclear warhead on Israel they'll let Hezbollah do it via trucks that openly pass through Syria. Nevermind the fact that a nuclear bomb will wipe out much of the Palestinian population in the process b/c they can just be called "shahids" in the aftermath.
People on here keep referring to the war with Hezbollah of 2006. Remember, that Hezbollah fired thousands of katyushas into Israeli territory indiscrimantely, including areas dominated by Arabs. They were delibirately targetting a civillian population, knowing full well that Israel's response could be very harsh.
You mentioned MAD. I think Iran's spiritual leader is mad. I've been reading about his ambitions for Iran to have nuclear weapons for 15 years now, long before the US-Iraq war of 2003.
This thread is about the Palestinian and Israeli question. You know whats really sad about the Palestinian situation? The Arab states talk a lot, critize Israel a lot, but don't invest a lot in places like the West Bank when the time is right:
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=12889
In his article titled How The Arabs Failed In Bethlehem, Abdul Ahmad Al Rashed accurately points out that "The conference's failure proved that the Palestinians would not get Arab support unless an Israeli shell fell on the Intercontinental Hotel, the conference venue, and Palestinian television showed scenes of bodies, wounded, blood, and shouts. No aid without disasters. This is the only emotional engine. As to the rational engine for confronting the occupation, backing the steadfastness, helping the human being in his daily life, or investing for the future in the occupied territories is something that is totally beyond Arab thinking." |
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| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Islamophobia? :rolleyes: what has Israel done for you personally or to the world for that matter to gain your blinded support? |
It's given us a country that loves Schnitzel just as much as it loves Falafel and Humus :wtf: |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
I'd like to believe that theory holds true. Here's what you may want to keep in mind:
When 9/11 happened dont you think the Taliban knew that as a result the US would in turn go after them and invade Afghanistan? The Taliban and Iran may be sworn ememies, but their view of the US is all too similar. |
First of all, the Taliban had no idea about the plans for 911. This was a 100% Al-Qaida operation. As you know Al-Qaida just don't give a %&$*...
| quote: | | Not only that, but Iran is one of the main countries that trains suicide bombers. |
Iran does not train suicide bombers first of all. IN Iraq, the suicide bombers have been foreign SUNNI militants. Additionally, Hezbollah trains suicide bombers, not Iran. Yes Iran supports Hezbollah, but Hezbollah has a command structure of its own.
| quote: | | Iran's spiritual leader is of the mindset that the Palestinians "wouldn't mind" sacrificing many of their own in order to rid the world of the zionist state. |
Where did you derive this mindset from? Have you spoken to the Ayatollah or read this somewhere?
| quote: | | So hey, instead of Iran launching a nuclear warhead on Israel they'll let Hezbollah do it via trucks that openly pass through Syria. Nevermind the fact that a nuclear bomb will wipe out much of the Palestinian population in the process b/c they can just be called "shahids" in the aftermath. |
Again we come back to MAD. In the event, as you speculate, that Iran ships a nuke to Hezbollah, who then uses it on Israel, this would still ensure the destruction of Iran. Israel would know where the nuke came from and would in turn retaliate. MAD still holds firm here.
| quote: | | People on here keep referring to the war with Hezbollah of 2006. Remember, that Hezbollah fired thousands of katyushas into Israeli territory indiscrimantely, including areas dominated by Arabs. They were delibirately targetting a civillian population, knowing full well that Israel's response could be very harsh. |
So Israel's use of cluster bombs in civilian areas means nothing to you? Let's do a little math...
Lebanese civilians killed: 1,123; 30% of which were children.
Israeli civilians killed: 43
90 children have died after the war as a result of unexploded Israeli ordinance, most notably, cluster bombs, which 111 nations have just agreed to outlaw.
| quote: | | You mentioned MAD. I think Iran's spiritual leader is mad. I've been reading about his ambitions for Iran to have nuclear weapons for 15 years now, long before the US-Iraq war of 2003. |
I don't think Iran's spiritual leader is mad. What ambitions have you been reading, and where are you reading them from? The New American Century?
| quote: | This thread is about the Palestinian and Israeli question. You know whats really sad about the Palestinian situation? The Arab states talk a lot, critize Israel a lot, but don't invest a lot in places like the West Bank when the time is right:
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=12889 |
If you know anything about investments, you would know about something called, "risk tolerance". Let's take a look at the West Bank. Israel has over 500 checkpoints throughout the West Bank choking off commerce. They are under a military occupation. The risks far outweigh the benefits of investing in the West Bank. The economy is in shambles, and will continue as long as the occupation continues. Tell me, apart from any donations, what investor would risk their capital in such a high risk, low return, place like the West Bank?
| quote: | | In his article titled How The Arabs Failed In Bethlehem, Abdul Ahmad Al Rashed accurately points out that "The conference's failure proved that the Palestinians would not get Arab support unless an Israeli shell fell on the Intercontinental Hotel, the conference venue, and Palestinian television showed scenes of bodies, wounded, blood, and shouts. No aid without disasters. This is the only emotional engine. As to the rational engine for confronting the occupation, backing the steadfastness, helping the human being in his daily life, or investing for the future in the occupied territories is something that is totally beyond Arab thinking." |
Are you now blaming the Arabs for Palestinians economic hardships? I do recall it is Israel who is maintaining a blockade on Gaza, and instituting an apartheid-like grip on the West Bank. This conference was about encouraging foreign investment right? So why are you talking about aid now? Are we talking about aid or investments? They already get plenty of aid. But as I said, no rational investor would invest in such a risky venture as an occupation zone. |
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