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Are there many talented trance producers about these days ? (pg. 4)
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| DJ RANN |
This seems to be a topic that was touched in a vinyl vs CD thread a little while back.
The thrust of it was that the costs of vinyl getting pressed acted as a filter - labels that could possibly have a couple of thousand copies of track would think long and hard about the release before pressing anything, as it's a lot of lost money if it doesn't sell.
It doesn't take anything apart from a computer and a beatport selling account to produce and release you music commercially which is why there are so many releases and why so many are not worth releasing. There is basically no risk involved. The ease of producing a track has been increased with the tools that we have today, but that doesn;t mean that people know how to use them properly, but again as there is no risk involved there is more chance that people who are clueless/talentless/etc will give it a shot.
Having said that it's a slight misnoma that there are way more tracks around in our particular genre than in others before. Yes, it's easier for someone with no musical understanding to make music today, but for instance, if you look back to the 30's/40's/50's the amount of say showtunes were written each monrh was unbelievable - in the thousands. It was the fashion of the day, and there were a lot of forgettable ones that didn;t survive or even saw the light of day but that didn't stop people from penning more tunes. Only the good or even lucky survived.
To a degree I get the whole "EDM tracks are part of a bigger set" because that's how a lot of producers make tracks (i.e. not to be standalone piece) it's not totally true, especially if you listen to some house(trance for noobs) from the early and mid nineties. They are songs, in the true respect of songwriting. Much more vocals generally and have the flow and structure of what most people would call a "song". IMO, most people write "tracks" these days - I don't want to get in to splitting terms/words but you get my point.
There are always exceptions coming up - where producers have made an EDM song, that is a classic and stands up on it's own, and I dare say, that in those circumstances the producers often have serious music theory or songwriting experience.
I don't think the example of bands such as U2 (etc.) are a good example of people who make their own music. Yes they write it and ultimately perform it, but the amount of production, programming, engineering, tinkering (whatever) by an army of other very talented that goes in to any of their releases, means that many of them they really are only a few steps better than your madonna or other contrived pop act. I'm not trying to take anything away from their talent, but there is sooooo much production going in to commercial mainstream releases from nearly every band that gets in to a dmoestic chart. I'm also trying to highlight the point made earlier, that in EDM, we rarely have anyone else to rely on as we are the sole production team (producer, engineer, mastering engineer, programmer, composer/songwriter, sound designer, assistant engineer, rhythm consultant, etc). To do all these things well, at once, is no easy task.
To get back on point, I think the reason there is so much dross about in EDM, is that it's become so much easier with the tools we now have, there is so little risk in releasing a track, the genre ca attract a lower age group (name another genre that has 15/16 year old "producers" in abundance), and finally and most importantly, it does not necessarily require you to have thorough musical knowledge (either in terms of historical musical knowledge or musical theory).
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| csfp |
| Im a talented young trance producer ... who asks ? :haha: :haha: :whip: |
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| Jimb0b |
Nice reply DJ RANN, you put across a lot of good points and put into words well.
Can I ask, do you think it is a good / bad thing that there is so little risk in being able to just put a track track on beatport and see how it does ? im interested in what you think.
Im repeating myself really by saying that there are both pro's and con's to it. On the positive side, you get to hear some tracks that you wouldnt of heard before because the artist wouldnt of had the oppertunity of getting his material into the public domain - this I applaude.
On the other side, you can get so much crap that it takes away the satisfaction on coming across a good track, you have to discount so many tracks as they are not up to par, that you just get sick of having to go through them all to find the good ones.
Maybe if people had higher standards for the material they release then it wouldnt be in such a sorry state, but as said it is so easy for people these days to "release" something that they dont need to put in all the effort because at the end of the day, it is them that decides if it is good enough or not, maybe this is ultimately the problem? no form of quality control as such and peoples perspective of what is "releasable" and what isnt. |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
It doesn't take anything apart from a computer and a beatport selling account to produce and release you music commercially which is why there are so many releases and why so many are not worth releasing. There is basically no risk involved. The ease of producing a track has been increased with the tools that we have today, but that doesn;t mean that people know how to use them properly, but again as there is no risk involved there is more chance that people who are clueless/talentless/etc will give it a shot.
Having said that it's a slight misnoma that there are way more tracks around in our particular genre than in others before. Yes, it's easier for someone with no musical understanding to make music today, but for instance, if you look back to the 30's/40's/50's the amount of say showtunes were written each monrh was unbelievable - in the thousands. It was the fashion of the day, and there were a lot of forgettable ones that didn;t survive or even saw the light of day but that didn't stop people from penning more tunes. Only the good or even lucky survived.
To a degree I get the whole "EDM tracks are part of a bigger set" because that's how a lot of producers make tracks (i.e. not to be standalone piece) it's not totally true, especially if you listen to some house(trance for noobs) from the early and mid nineties. They are songs, in the true respect of songwriting. Much more vocals generally and have the flow and structure of what most people would call a "song". IMO, most people write "tracks" these days - I don't want to get in to splitting terms/words but you get my point.
There are always exceptions coming up - where producers have made an EDM song, that is a classic and stands up on it's own, and I dare say, that in those circumstances the producers often have serious music theory or songwriting experience.
I don't think the example of bands such as U2 (etc.) are a good example of people who make their own music. Yes they write it and ultimately perform it, but the amount of production, programming, engineering, tinkering (whatever) by an army of other very talented that goes in to any of their releases, means that many of them they really are only a few steps better than your madonna or other contrived pop act. I'm not trying to take anything away from their talent, but there is sooooo much production going in to commercial mainstream releases from nearly every band that gets in to a dmoestic chart. I'm also trying to highlight the point made earlier, that in EDM, we rarely have anyone else to rely on as we are the sole production team (producer, engineer, mastering engineer, programmer, composer/songwriter, sound designer, assistant engineer, rhythm consultant, etc). To do all these things well, at once, is no easy task.
To get back on point, I think the reason there is so much dross about in EDM, is that it's become so much easier with the tools we now have, there is so little risk in releasing a track, the genre ca attract a lower age group (name another genre that has 15/16 year old "producers" in abundance), and finally and most importantly, it does not necessarily require you to have thorough musical knowledge (either in terms of historical musical knowledge or musical theory).
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I disagree with you about the overall quality of EDM, theres as much good stuff in our genre now as there ever was, a lot of it comes from bedroom producers, and IMO, its much better quality than a lot of the tripe that gets released by majors on vinyl/CD and DOES sell thousands/millions and has for the last 50 years.
I think in trance there is still a tendancy for people to write songs not tracks, but in progressive and minimal maybe this is not so prevalent due to their tendancy to layer. Any genre which occasionally produces albums I think often leans more to songs than tracks. I try to do both, theres nothing wrong with writing a track, its just as enjoyable for me and I find it just as musical.
Totally disagree with you about U2, they're great writers 99% of the time, and they write all their own stuff. A lot of that post production stuff is heavily influenced by them as well, as far as I know, they take a very active role in the production of their records and I have complete respect for them. Most important, you can play their stuff with just a guitar and it sound just as good, so clearly the engineering isn't doing all the work. They are a long way from britney spears etc, who is basically just a brand name used to sell product (whether it be perfume or CDs).
We don't have more bad tracks because of the age of the producers, thats a hopelessly ignorant thing to say. Lots of 12 year olds play guitar and call it rock. In australia, theres a lot of them getting released, Operator Please, Bridezilla, the Flairz... I don't like it, but it sells and they're doing well. Theres nothing saying a 15/16 year old can't make quality tracks in any genre. And no genre requires you to have music theory knowledge. I used to sit down and play classical piano all the time before I ever got a decent musical theory knowledge, its all just sound really.
I'm really not convinced that EDM has a huge quality problem to be honest, I could spend close to a grand on stuff every couple of months, because there so much quality out there. I think some of you are just having problems in finding it. |
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| Jimb0b |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
I'm really not convinced that EDM has a huge quality problem to be honest, I could spend close to a grand on stuff every couple of months, because there so much quality out there. I think some of you are just having problems in finding it. |
Maybe this is where different tastes come into play, alot of the stuff you may consider to be ok / good, I may consider to be crap. Im affraid you are not going to be able to sell it to me, there is more crap about these days than in the past as far as I am concerned. |
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| cryophonik |
No offense, but it sounds to me like all of your whining isn't so much about the quality of trance in general, but more about the fact that you personally are looking in the wrong places for what you perceive as "quality" trance from "talented" producers. If you are scouring beatport et al., and not finding what you're looking for, then perhaps you just need to look elsewhere or start relying more on word-of-mouth.
But, the reality is, all of your complaining is moot. How do you propose to solve your perceived problem? Tell people to stop producing "crap" that you don't approve of? Good luck with that.
The music market has changed drastically in the past decade and is now in a constant state of flux. But, the market is avery powerful, albeit sometimes slow-moving, force. If/when the market determines that there is too much "crap" out there, then it will eventually sort it out. Supply and demand, my friend...;) |
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| Jimb0b |
| My point is, I just dont have the time to search though everything that is released to find the good tracks out there. |
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| Raphie |
As a (bedroom) producer i really couldn't care less if someone else likes my music or not and if i am creditble enough to sell on Beatport.
It's quite simple: Let's asume Beatport is part of the hobby. if i put all my releases on there then the sales will speak for itself. If people like my stuff they will buy it, if they don't they don't buy it. quite simple.
One step further if you only find "crap" releases on my label. Then you don't even bother listening to sniplets anymore. Hence you don't have to wade through my crap before you find stuff you fancy.....
I am one of the thousands doing this as a hobby. I would already be happy if i could make enough to pay for the hobby.
So i find some of the angles of this topic a bit strange, as if the "pros" tell the "noobs" not to bother with exposing their creativity.... |
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| csfp |
| And would you consider any of tracks on myspace good ? or quality ? in your personal subjective opinion of course, I just thought of rlsing some of them on Beatport so I will gladly hear an opinion from someone who is rather demanding ;) |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
I disagree with you about the overall quality of EDM, theres as much good stuff in our genre now as there ever was, a lot of it comes from bedroom producers, and IMO, its much better quality than a lot of the tripe that gets released by majors on vinyl/CD and DOES sell thousands/millions and has for the last 50 years.
I think in trance there is still a tendancy for people to write songs not tracks, but in progressive and minimal maybe this is not so prevalent due to their tendancy to layer. Any genre which occasionally produces albums I think often leans more to songs than tracks. I try to do both, theres nothing wrong with writing a track, its just as enjoyable for me and I find it just as musical.
Totally disagree with you about U2, they're great writers 99% of the time, and they write all their own stuff. A lot of that post production stuff is heavily influenced by them as well, as far as I know, they take a very active role in the production of their records and I have complete respect for them. Most important, you can play their stuff with just a guitar and it sound just as good, so clearly the engineering isn't doing all the work. They are a long way from britney spears etc, who is basically just a brand name used to sell product (whether it be perfume or CDs).
We don't have more bad tracks because of the age of the producers, thats a hopelessly ignorant thing to say. Lots of 12 year olds play guitar and call it rock. In australia, theres a lot of them getting released, Operator Please, Bridezilla, the Flairz... I don't like it, but it sells and they're doing well. Theres nothing saying a 15/16 year old can't make quality tracks in any genre. And no genre requires you to have music theory knowledge. I used to sit down and play classical piano all the time before I ever got a decent musical theory knowledge, its all just sound really.
I'm really not convinced that EDM has a huge quality problem to be honest, I could spend close to a grand on stuff every couple of months, because there so much quality out there. I think some of you are just having problems in finding it. |
hang on, you're taking cross purposes here. Firstly, there is a lot of tripe put out by major labels (I'm not not talking about small/edm labels - that's a different subject), that's obvious, which is why the majors are all in such trouble at the moment.
There some quality producers out there and finding it isn't an issue, it's just a different challenge - it's all in front of you now but there is so much more - I used to have get a train for 30 mins, then go to a couple of different record stores, to pay much more for just a handful of releases....but IMO the overall quality (both production and composition) has suffered. It's many factors, but I thinks it's primarily because you didn't get to use a studio or build one yourself unless you were really in to it - again a studio (either building one or renting) cost a lot of money a short while ago, so only those who were serious or talented got to produce, therefore there was a certain talent filter. Couple that with the releasing costs and you had a higher threshold of quality.
I will say, those who produce now and get it right, their production is generally better than it was a few years ago, and technology has helped in that respect.
What i actually think has happened is that production/engineering skills have got better, while song writing and composition quality has declined. I can't think of many tracks produced say over the last 2 years that will stand up as classic song (in the EDM genre) in 10 years time. Now think back a few years and it's a different story.
As for U2, I did say they were a step above the Madonna's etc, but for even a single release, I guarantee there are probably at least 20 people who have a hand in shaping that record, whether it be percussionists, producers, creative engineers, assistant engineers, colaborative artists (read as subwriters), remixers, programmers...the list goes on. And yes US do have a lot of input on the whole production process, but in fairness so does madonna - she chooses the producers of her albums and relies on their talent in the same way U2 rely on their pool of people. You have to realise, that at that level, the major labels consider this as a unit sales operation, and there is no way they are going to let bands do their own thing witout a huge amount of support to make sure the finished product sells. to back this up: one of the majors in the last few years brought in new high level excecutives and got rid of load who were very music savvy. The reason, the replacements were from fast moving consumer goods (International distributors - from a well known soup company and shoe manufacturer to be precise). Why because it's about shifting units, all around the world, and it doesn't matter what the product is.
I'm not saying U2 are great, cos they are but it aint just them and a tape operator when they are recording new material, let along composing it.
I know this because I work as a studio engineer, full time, and sometimes it feels like a machine, very detached from what the stereotype of bands making their own music is.
I think we do have more tracks around because a good few years ago, when I was working in audio retail, we didn't get many 15 year old buying kit, because they couldn't afford it and it was relatively more difficult to get a studio setup. As time went on and software became more encompassing, the age group seriously lowered and seeing a kid still in school buying reason became the norm. If you base your opinion on whether quality has gone up or down by the number of crap releases divided by the number of truly good ones, I think there is a far greater of number of crap ones than there ever has been, and I don't think the number of good tracks has increased in proportion.
Maybe the reason those bands you mentioned (I don't have a clue about any of them) are doing well is that 15 year olds are buying their stuff ans they can relate to it, which is why they are popular (not because it is incredible music or well produced). At the same time there are some really talented young producers and frankly I wish I had their skills when I was that age, but a 15/16 year old is not going to have the musical or technical knowledge that someone who is older has and has been doing it for years. 25 year old producer is going to have possibly 10 years of practise opposed to a 15 year old who at best is going to have 1 or 2 (not instrument playing I mean making making EDM). My point is the chances are lower.
I agree, I don't think EDM is in trouble - there is still plenty of quality and markets self regulate. Beatport is slowly introducing minimum sales figures for labels, which will mean only labels that put out quality will be able to sell. People who buy a load of kit or software are keep churning out that doesn't sell are soon going to get bored, unless they are deluded.
On a note going back to the topic, there is something to be said of time and place, which has been touched on in other threads here.
It has to do with a general pool of talent coming together, often induced by social environments. In the 90's, in the UK, there was a depression and music/clubbing became the nations choice for release. Many talented people all feeding off a vibe or a time can create an incredibly productfull environment - more so than just the sum of the parts, and it increases exponentially, If you look though history the pattern is repeated again and again, whether it be in music, art, design etc. |
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| Dreamtea |
I dont think its fair to compare all this old rockmusic to todays EDM. They sat the standard of that sort of music. You better compare todays rockmusic with todays EDM. I heavent heard any real classic rocksong that will be remember for ages in a very long time either.
Jimb0b - I get the impression that youre not that into EDM att all, If you really like it finding some tunes you dig wouldnt be that hard. Everyone got different taste and maybe songs with strong melodies and a leadsinger is more of youre thing. Personally I often hear songs that I love in EDM
One strong cause to all this "" in EDM are that it is Electronic. All those crappy rockartists out there have no chance to put their music out, because they just cant handle it on their own. Most of them will at least need to rent a studio or get in touch with some homeproducer with enough hardware and software to get it digital. When a song is made ON a computer all you need to do is push the right button and wait for the mp3/wav to get ready.
Offcorse there is a lot of out there, but thats in all genres, Its just much more easier to get it out in electronic music. |
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| -FSP- |
Mozart was considered too ornamental
Beethoven was considered too repetitive
Jazz was considered stupid music back then, all drugs and hedonism
Disco was considered stupid music back then, all drugs and hedonism
Rock was considered stupid music back then, all drugs and hedonism
Rap was considered to be stupid music back then, all drugs and hedonism
Trance was considered to be stupid music back then, all drugs and hedonism
And for many of the classical composers, they were considered sinful for making emotional music. today they are considered classics.
Who's to say that EDM will be forgotten tommorow?
And Jimbo, I think you might have misinterpreted what I said. I said "for every 100 bad songs there is 1 good song" you pretty much said "there is still going to be more bad songs" but the average of picking up a good song is still the same despite an increase in songs.
In this day and age I'm actually finding more GOOD SONGS than bad songs and that's in all genres.
Would you rather have a DJ or the RADIO choose for you or would you rather have YOU choose for YOU? Pick your prison. If you choose the latter, get ready to shift through juno or something. I've chosen the latter and I'm happier as a result. |
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