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Why is abortion still an issue? (pg. 4)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
That's why there's still a debate, because there is no universal definition. |
no, there's still a debate because some members of society deem it appropriate to dictate to others how to live their life. |
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| Capitalizt |
| It's not a human IMO until it can survive on it's own. That would be around month 6 at the very earliest. I don't see why we can't compromise and allow abortions when the baby is still the size of a pea..but ban them once it has a fully developed brain, limbs, working organs, etc. At the point when it can breathe air and survive without the mom, killing it should qualify as murder. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
It's not a human IMO until it can survive on it's own. That would be around month 6 at the very earliest. I don't see why we can't compromise and allow abortions when the baby is still the size of a pea..but ban them once it has a fully developed brain, limbs, working organs, etc. At the point when it can breathe air and survive without the mom, killing it should qualify as murder. |
What's your definition of "survive on it's own?" Does a premature infant that needs neonatal intensive care count? It is okay to "abort" a premature infant by removing care? If I take a 1 day old, or how about a 3 year old, and stop giving it food and water and tell it to go out, get a job and get its own food and water, is it able to "survive on it's own?" Is it okay to kill a member of society if it's not able to support itself?
Again, what's your definition of "survive on it's own?" |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
What's your definition of "survive on it's own?" |
Capable of surviving outside the mother's body. Capable of being given to someone else and nurtured into a full-sized healthy baby. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Capable of surviving outside the mother's body. Capable of being given to someone else and nurtured into a full-sized healthy baby. |
So if premature infants are included, your definition is entirely based on technology. The better technology we have, and the earlier we are able to sustain an infant outside of a woman during gestation, the earlier the definition of human/person becomes. Using this definition, the day we are able to raise an infant from fertilization in vitro, we will need to ban all abortions. Or am I not getting your definition correctly? |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
So if premature infants are included, your definition is entirely based on technology. The better technology we have, and the earlier we are able to sustain an infant outside of a woman during gestation, the earlier the definition of human/person becomes. Using this definition, the day we are able to raise an infant from fertilization in vitro, we will need to ban all abortions. Or am I not getting your definition correctly? |
Stop picking on me, lol.. No, I don't think abortion should be banned. As I said in my first post, when the baby is nothing more than a blob.. a collection of cells..not even remotely resembling a conscious human, I have no problem with it.. I think the closer the fetus comes to resembling a person..in terms of brain and organ development, the more murky the waters become. It would seem around the 7 month mark..when the child is mostly developed and can potentially see, hear, touch, taste, and breathe on its own..when oxygen and food are all it needs to survive, at that point it should be considered fully human. |
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| HardTranceProd |
I kind of agree with Shakka, the issue is nothing more than just noise in the US, because the laws will never be changed, regardless of political posturing.
The majority of people in the US are polite and abhor any kind of radicalism. Banning or restricting abortions is a pretty radical move that will never happen.
So why do Americans keep talking about it? I view it as the case of "keeping up appearances." Americans in general are fairly squeamish and it's important for them to be euphemistic and keep up the appearance of a civil, idealistic society. Speed signs on highways are a good case in point. Road signs in the US seem to require speeds that are always 15-20mph lower than what happens in reality. Everybody understands how to play the game, although blatantly acknowledging it would be too much.
Same with sex-ed in schools. Paying lip service to "abstinence" -- which is absolutely not the norm in the US, with most students having sex at 16 -- seems to fulfill the goal of keeping up appearances.
In general, in the US, behavior is tolerated but there is a lot of noise surrounding it. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
since when is that NOT a valid issue? |
Argumentum ad is one of the favourite fallacy of second wave feminists, this would be one of those instances ;). |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zild
Good thing it is legal since I don't want or need anyone else's morality. |
I never shoved it down your throat either. I have never voted in my life, and assuming I do at any point in the future, abortion isn't an issue that will be anywhere on the list. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Stop picking on me, lol.. No, I don't think abortion should be banned. As I said in my first post, when the baby is nothing more than a blob.. a collection of cells..not even remotely resembling a conscious human, I have no problem with it.. I think the closer the fetus comes to resembling a person..in terms of brain and organ development, the more murky the waters become. It would seem around the 7 month mark..when the child is mostly developed and can potentially see, hear, touch, taste, and breathe on its own..when oxygen and food are all it needs to survive, at that point it should be considered fully human. |
Not picking, just trying to make a point I guess. There is no clear, objective definition of when a blob of cells transforms into a human, with all the rights that go along with being human, and that's why there's still a debate as to abortion. If there were a definitive answer to that question, I don't think there would be an abortion issue, but as long as the definition remains a subjective, personal decision, there probably will be. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Argumentum ad is one of the favourite fallacy of second wave feminists, this would be one of those instances ;). |
In case you're wondering what an argumentum ad is, a phrase I haven't really heard anyone by myself use, is an argument relying on the power of to override reason. To elaborate, when a second wave feminist or anyone subscribing to their ideas claims that one member of the species, based on gender, more specifically, the member with a , has special privelages and rights that the other one doesn't, somehow forms the basis for a valid argument... eventhough it undermines the entire premise for their philosophy and perspective, you know, equality. An appeal to your inner is a logical fallacy, and pussies have a tendency for falling for this :D. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I never shoved it down your throat either. I have never voted in my life, and assuming I do at any point in the future, abortion isn't an issue that will be anywhere on the list. |
Thank God for democracy. |
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