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Hate Crimes? (pg. 4)
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
wrong. such legislation polices actions, not thought. otherwise you could label almost any law as a way of policing thought, such as laws governing libel or defamation. |
You get a harsher penalty due to your thought process. If a guy ground someone up just because and another guy ground someone up because he was black the latter would face a harsher penalty. Which is bull in my opinion. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ted Promo
You get a harsher penalty due to your thought process. If a guy ground someone up just because and another guy ground someone up because he was black the latter would face a harsher penalty. Which is bull in my opinion. |
yeah, i understand the point. i just think that killing someone because they're black or gay is different (and worse) than killing someone because they pissed you off. the levels of violence against say, the gay community, warrants special attention imo. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
wrong. such legislation polices actions, not thought. otherwise you could label almost any law as a way of policing thought, such as laws governing libel or defamation. |
And what about hate-libel and hate-defamation? |
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
yeah, i understand the point. i just think that killing someone because they're black or gay is different (and worse) than killing someone because they pissed you off. the levels of violence against say, the gay community, warrants special attention imo. |
And I don't. If the crime is the same and you're getting punished more because of alleged "hate" then you're essentially policing thought processes.
Punish the crime, not the thought. This will step onto pre-meditated murders as well I know. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
And what about hate-libel and hate-defamation? |
and hate rape too? ;)
i take your point, but i am still in favour of measures that may help reduce violent 'hate crimes'. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ted Promo
And I don't. If the crime is the same and you're getting punished more because of alleged "hate" then you're essentially policing thought processes.
Punish the crime, not the thought. This will step onto pre-meditated murders as well I know. |
well, we have different defintions of crime based upon the nature of the crime, murder 1 or 2, manslaughter 1 or 2 etc. i have no problem with a district attorney having the power to increase a penalty based on relevant facts, just the same as they do with deciding which cases become death penalty crimes and which do not. |
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
and hate rape too? ;)
i take your point, but i am still in favour of measures that may help reduce violent 'hate crimes'. |
Fundamental difference of opinion then :p
I just think it's dangerous to police thought processes. Giving government legislation over gray areas (thought processes) as opposed to black & white areas (the crime itself) is always dangerous in my opinion. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ted Promo
Fundamental difference of opinion then :p
I just think it's dangerous to police thought processes. Giving government legislation over gray areas (thought processes) as opposed to black & white areas (the crime itself) is always dangerous in my opinion. |
then you must have an awful problem with every 'advanced' justice system in the world, where a plethora of 'wiggle-room' is utilised by the state when bringing charges. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| Demoted: You are totally wrong on how you are defining it. A hate crime is when someone is targeted BECAUSE they are a member of a certain group. Not just because they are not liked. That is not policing thought by any means. |
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
then you must have an awful problem with every 'advanced' justice system in the world, where a plethora of 'wiggle-room' is utilised by the state when bringing charges. |
I don't like loop holes for the most part. I realize that there must be for an 'advanced' judicial system, but I think it should be as black and white as possible. Hate crimes are needless. |
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
Demoted: You are totally wrong on how you are defining it. A hate crime is when someone is targeted BECAUSE they are a member of a certain group. Not just because they are not liked. That is not policing thought by any means. |
And so what if they are targeted because of personal disdain or if they're targeted at random? It doesn't make a difference if in both instances the victim is maimed or killed. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
It's merely intensifying punishment, that's all. People who commit murder are not worried about severity of the penalty if we're talking the difference between 200 and 500 years in prison. It's simply not an effective deterrent for the crime, itself, and it's certainly not an effective deterrent for even non-criminal behaviour or thought. If anything, it is just a way for victims to lash back at their attackers through the legal system, almost reverse-hate.
I mean, really, is any crime without hate truly a crime at all? :thepirate |
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