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Hate Crimes? (pg. 6)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
How is it worse though? The result is still the same, so why does motive truly make that much of a difference? |
because you might not be able to prevent person A killing person B for reasons unknown, but you might be able to prevent person A from killing person B simply because they were gay. |
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| tubularbills |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ted Promo
And so what if they are targeted because of personal disdain or if they're targeted at random? It doesn't make a difference if in both instances the victim is maimed or killed. |
but it does if the event was due to premotivation or something.
example:
you go and kill person A...just because they cut you off while driving.
now , that scenario is way different than this:
you go and kill person A because not only did they cut you off; but they are black (or white, or wahtever the case may be).
now, that scenario is also different than this:
you go and kill person A because not only did they cut you off; but because they had a rainbow bumper sticker on and they're gay.
its one thing to crime against someone for a random act; but crime against someone for a motive and/or pre-emptive motivation ( :wtf: ) i think is different; and should be punished differently.
just like in murder, you have regular old "you killed someone" and "you killed someone, but were thinking about it for months"
does any of this make sense? i often have a hard time explaining in textual context. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
anecdotal arguments arent particularly strong as im sure you're well aware. there are just as many examples of people being treated too harshly because a judge had no discretion.
and really, manufacturing firearms illegally is a pretty serious offence in my world. |
I think it's pretty obvious I wasn't making a serious argument for hate crimes with my story, seeing as how it has nothing to do with them.
I live in a country where you can buy guns at Wal-Mart. But making them yourself is worthy of life imprisonment? He didn't even make them - he helped procure the materials for somebody else who was making them - for a profit, of course - but the other guy got out after 5 years. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
because you might not be able to prevent person A killing person B for reasons unknown, but you might be able to prevent person A from killing person B simply because they were gay. |
I fail to see how you prevent someone from killing a gay person 'merely because they're gay' by making the punishment more harsh.
I mean, when I'm prowling for a juicy fag to flay alive in my basement, I never stop to think to myself 'dude... this might just be a hate crime'.
It's like with any behavioural control - punishment merely reinforces fear of punishment and encourages not getting caught. People do not automatically see how much more wrong they are by merely considering the severity of punishment. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I think it's pretty obvious I wasn't making a serious argument for hate crimes with my story, seeing as how it has nothing to do with them.
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obviously, we weren't talking about hate crimes in that instance tho ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I live in a country where you can buy guns at Wal-Mart. But making them yourself is worthy of life imprisonment? He didn't even make them - he helped procure the materials for somebody else who was making them - for a profit, of course - but the other guy got out after 5 years. |
unlucky! |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I fail to see how you prevent someone from killing a gay person 'merely because they're gay' by making the punishment more harsh.
I mean, when I'm prowling for a juicy fag to flay alive in my basement, I never stop to think to myself 'dude... this might just be a hate crime'.
It's like with any behavioural control - punishment merely reinforces fear of punishment and encourages not getting caught. People do not automatically see how much more wrong they are by merely considering the severity of punishment. |
but punishment is also a deterrance, even if its a rather flacid one. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by tubularbills
its one thing to crime against someone for a random act; but crime against someone for a motive and/or pre-emptive motivation ( :wtf: ) i think is different; and should be punished differently. |
But why?
I realize there is legal precedence considering degrees of murder, but if the result is the same, what reason could there possibly be for the same crime to be considered even more criminal? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
But why?
I realize there is legal precedence considering degrees of murder, but if the result is the same, what reason could there possibly be for the same crime to be considered even more criminal? |
haven't you just answered your own question? |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
but punishment is also a deterrance, even if its a rather flacid one. |
Well yeah, and I don't think anyone here is proposing we abolish punishment altogether. It just seems to me that hate crimes put a price on race or gender or whatever - they say "well, since somebody thought this, we will take away 5 -no, 10! 10 more years of his life!".
I understand that they are attempting to make an example of someone. I understand that the goal is to hopefully discourage would-be criminals from committing the very same crimes in lieu of some discriminatory factor. But there is a difference between people who are discriminatory in whatever manner is least popular at the time and people who are prone to acts of violence. Just because somebody is racist does not mean they are actually dangerous - just means they're probably kind of dumb. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
haven't you just answered your own question? |
I mean more criminal so far as people are concerned. Several have said that killing [for example] is so much worse when you do it with a reason than when you do it for no reason. Perhaps this assertion is without reason as well and the only reason people aren't giving reasons to their reasons is because it would just be far too criminal. :o |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I mean more criminal so far as people are concerned. Several have said that killing [for example] is so much worse when you do it with a reason than when you do it for no reason. Perhaps this assertion is without reason as well and the only reason people aren't giving reasons to their reasons is because it would just be far too criminal. :o |
all very good points, and funny to boot. |
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| Ted Promo |
| Hal voices my opinions so much more poignantly than I ever could :wtf: |
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