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what it takes to produce... do i have the hard part down already? (pg. 13)
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by mysticalninja
Oh, Beethoven used lots of parallel and augmented Fifths, which were considered completely wrong at the time.
In his first movement from the 5th Symphony, Beethoven just keeps going over that phrase. It was just like writing a rock song. He found himself a great little hook. He was having fun kicking it around.
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again you are mistaken. There might be a few by mistake which were probably corrected later by editors but you phrase it like he did it intentionally. He didn't. He ignored the parallel octave motion which is really something that grew out of orchestration having a voice doubled an octave higher.
And your mention to the 5th symphony. I am wondering if perhaps you are not quite sure what a parallel 5th is. It is not a phrase. It is a principle concerning voice leading. Would you be able to pinpoint the exact measure or if you dont' have a score, a youtube recording with the time it happens at.
And your mentioned to augment 5th ? There is no such interval so I am assuming you mean augmented 4rths and this has never been a rule remotely as vocal as the the parallel 5th motion. In fact i don't think it was ever a rule because most occurences would be from parallel diminished chords and that was just something people didn't do alot but it wasn't because it was a rule, just an aesthetic preference.
The only exception I can think of is a German 6 chord resolving to a V7 without using the V6/4 prior to avoid the 5th motion but again, i really can't think of any examples and i know his music very well. Well enough to know that it was never something he flaunted. He definately followed that rule 99.9 % of the time.
I think the problem is that people including yourself think he just threw all the rules out in defiance. This is a myth propagated by the uninformed. He broke some rules, most of them having to do with form , and expanded on current rules in a context that made it new but he was definitely a part of tradition. But concerning the basic rules you mentioned, he was definitely someone that abide by them almost all the time. When he didn't, there was almost always an aesthetical reason why. |
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| mfitterer1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by xenos_declan
Okay I think I see what you mean. What you're saying is that finding something hard doesn't make it hard and finding something easy doesn't make it easy?
So having the right attitude is important. We need to lessen the idea of something being too hard or maybe we wouldn't feel capable of starting to learn it. Sometimes the thought of doing something is worse than the event. But of course we have to be realistic.
I do believe I understand you now. To be honest some of your statements earlier we're a bit arrogant but I think what you're saying is get the attitude right and the rest will follow? |
I'm nearly 300% sure that's what he has been trying to get across this whole time (in many more words!)
And it is completely true. People take confidence as an ego but it is a necessary evil to get anywhere in music.
People stress themselves out by looking at the big picture, especially in production. Instead, focusing on 30-40 tiny fragments will allow you many more mental victories to push you through your projects.
Make sense? |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichieV
but you phrase it like he did it intentionally. He didn't. |
In conversation with his musical friends, Beethoven took pleasure in ridiculing the strict precepts of the schools. When anyone ventured to point out infringements of them in his compositions, he used to cavalierly cast aside the small scrupulosities of his would-be censors. When in good humour on such occasions he would rub his hands, and exclaim, laughing heartily, "Oh yes, yes-- you are quite astonished, and at your wit's end, because you cannot find this in one of your treatises." "One day," says Ries, "when we were taking a walk together, I spoke of two consecutive fifths in one of his first sets of violin quartets, which produce a striking and beautiful effect. Beethoven did not recollect the passage, and would have it that there were no fifths in it. As he usually carried music paper in his pocket, I asked him for a bit, and wrote down the passge in four parts. Beethoven, seeing that I was right, said, 'Well, who has prohibited the use of fifths like these?" I was at a loss how to take the question. He repeated it several times, till at last I answered, greatly surprised at his putting it, 'Bless me, they are forbidden by the very fundamental rules of harmony!' Still he insisted on knowing by whom. I said, 'By Marpurg, Kirnberger, Fux, every theorist who has ever written on the subject.' 'Well,' cried Beethoven, 'they may have forbidden them, but I allow them!'"
To the end of his life Beethoven violated rules whenever he thought proper- especially if the progress of an idea was likely to be interfered with by a slavish adherence to some law of harmony.
True, he didn't just throw away the rules, in fact I read about how he frowned upon other composers who used the parallel fifths. |
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| xenos_declan |
| quote: | Originally posted by mfitterer1
I'm nearly 300% sure that's what he has been trying to get across this whole time (in many more words!)
And it is completely true. People take confidence as an ego but it is a necessary evil to get anywhere in music. |
I don't think confidence and ego are precisely the same thing. To me confidence is knowing you can do something but ego is more along the lines of boasting to people that you can do it. I'd prefer to be confident and quiet and then deliver the goods. If I'm good at something I don't need to run around telling people that I am, I just do it and let the results prove it.
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People stress themselves out by looking at the big picture, especially in production. Instead, focusing on 30-40 tiny fragments will allow you many more mental victories to push you through your projects.
Make sense? |
This definitely makes sense. An entire task can be daunting. The first thing I do in any project be it music, design or just organising my house it to break it into the constituent parts. |
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| mfitterer1 |
You're right, confidence and ego are separate, to someone who has proven themselves. To someone who has not (no offense meant by this), like the dude that started this flame war, it keeps them going. I highly doubt he means to come off as pompous as it sounds. To me he knows a lot about music but doesn't know how to use it yet. Seems he is past the discovery stage but not yet into the action phase, so his posts seem to be a validation of the journey he is on, but not yet completed.
That's my take, and there's nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks. |
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| cronodevir |
There was a flame war?
/me looks around... |
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| xenos_declan |
| quote: | Originally posted by cronodevir
There was a flame war?
/me looks around... |
Certainly not. The last 13 pages were just friendly chatting. Highly entertaining friendly chatting that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. |
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| xenos_declan |
| quote: | Originally posted by mfitterer1
You're right, confidence and ego are separate, to someone who has proven themselves. To someone who has not (no offense meant by this), like the dude that started this flame war, it keeps them going. I highly doubt he means to come off as pompous as it sounds. To me he knows a lot about music but doesn't know how to use it yet. Seems he is past the discovery stage but not yet into the action phase, so his posts seem to be a validation of the journey he is on, but not yet completed.
That's my take, and there's nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks. |
Interesting take. |
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| cronodevir |
| quote: | Originally posted by xenos_declan
Certainly not. The last 13 pages were just friendly chatting. Highly entertaining friendly chatting that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. |
Lol, Nice. Though that is what it usually is, we just happen to have drama-queens who like to blow things all out of proportion and make things seem more disturbed or chaotic than they really are. |
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| xenos_declan |
| quote: | Originally posted by cronodevir
Lol, Nice. Though that is what it usually is, we just happen to have drama-queens who like to blow things all out of proportion and make things seem more disturbed or chaotic than they really are. |
Well it was very entertaining and informative. I haven't been on these boards in years. It's good to be back. |
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| Richard Butler |
A recent study which took in many other studies, has shown there is one key fundamental reaon why certain people excel in any given area, from golf, to music, cooking to car racing.
It is not latent talent. The study looked at high end classical music colleges and found there were often many naturaly talented students.
No, what separates the top tier is one thing; 10,000 hours training.
Thats a lot of training.
Everyone from Mozart to the Beatles, the bloke who was the worlds most sucessfuul computer programmer (from the 1970s - he wrote most of the fundamental code that underpins most applications today), top tier racing drivers, top classical soloists, top sportsmen - golf, olyimpics, all of them had in thier time spent rutheless hours training to reach that magic 10,000 hours.
The female UK cycling champion trainied 6 hours per day 360 days per year for years to get the gold at Bejing.
Now thats not to say we dont get the oddd lucky person that gets a one hit wonder, but they tend not to last.
I would say this most definitely applies to trance and there are millions of adjustments one can make, and it takes a lot of hours to learn which adjuestments give the right end result. |
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| xenos_declan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Richard Butler
No, what separates the top tier is one thing; 10,000 hours training.
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Spot on. I've heard of this phenomenon alright. I'm pretty sure "the bloke who was the worlds most sucessfuul computer programmer" is Bill Gates. From what I remember he finagled some sort of deal when he was in school so that he had access to potent computers pretty much whenever he wanted. He used to go in, in the middle of the night to get the most out of it. Wish I could spend 10,000 hours learning music! |
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