Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
some of them do. some of them hate it so much they want to dismantle central banks even though they don't know what central banks do.
Some of them know what central banks do. Some know the fed is NOT part of a for-profit conspiracy...that there is no conspiracy and that the world is not run by a shadow government of corporations and elite bankers. Some know that the fed was created with the best of intentions and designed to do EXACTLY what it says it is doing...and that it should be dismantled for that reason. ;)
Arbiter
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
I'm sorry but do you not see that the area covered in "blue" in the chart? This means that IT IS THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Otherwise they would have made another color for the separate entities.
So, just out of curiosity, do you know what the word "and" means?
culorut
quote:
For the last time, the chart shows that government agencies, including the SSA, HUD, FEMA, and other agencies own 5 trillion in treasury debt. The federal reserve banks own only 1.1 trillion. You simply don't know how to read the chart, and you consistently disregard the labelling because it doesn't say what you want it to say. Furthermore, didn't you initially say that the fed owned about 50% of 50 something trillion in treasury debt? What happened to that claim (on my BB, so it isn't easy to scroll back)?
For the last time the chart shows very clearly "FEDERAL RESERVE AND INTRAGOVERNMENTAL HOLDINGS" in blue, it is under the same umbrella because it is all the FED's portion. Who taught you how to read charts by the way?
This accounts for 4.6 Trillion as of September 2008 and the FED's can use all of it as collateral to get credit because it is their physical money, they own it. Their holdings of physical money are all under their portion of the pie. This number is now well over 5 Trillion as we speak.
Why do you think this subject of Trillions of dollars missing made it all the way up (ON AIR) with the Inspector Office General of the FED being asked the same question directly?
Also I did point out that your link was correct in which the FEDS own a percentage of INTRAGOVERNMENTAL debt, you just forgot there is PUBLIC debt which they practically own all of and I am pointing it out to you for at least the tenth time already.
I posted numerous times a link to the Treasuries account of the Intragovernmental holdings from the same source (US TREASURY) you are getting your information from. Here it is again, scroll down to the bottom where it states the "GRAND TOTALS".
If you read correctly foreign countries own roughly 3 Trillion of the INTRAGOVERNMENAL debt. The public debt which is NOT even shown in this chart nor the one you used is owned by someone.....THE FED (they own the public debt).
The FEDS own roughly 5 Trillion between both Intragovernmental debt and public debt which is the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT. This is more or less equal to 5 Trillion dollars easily. Understand the chart yet?
They use their portion of the debt they own (roughly 50%) to print money because they hold the physical money as collateral. Thus there is 50 Trillion dollars in money supply available because of the multiplier (roughly 10X) which they then charge a (conservative) 5% interest rate on. This translates into 1.5 Trillion a year not including their transaction fees.
2 Trillion dollars a year easily in profit.
This is how fractional banking works in the central bank (FED). So I have to ask again where is the money? The source you and myself are both using shows they only returned 500 Billion dollars.
Pointing to some numbers on the US Treasuries links and what the FED's website claim they have in done in profit/return is clearly not adding up. Once it is broken down money is missing, Trillions of it.
The FEDERAL RESERVE owns 50% of the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT which is 5 Trillion dollars, not just their piece (1.5 Trillion of INTRAGOVERNMENTAL DEBT) of out of the one half of the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT as you are claiming.
Lebezniatnikov
Did you take the ACT by any chance? I'm really curious what you got on the science and graphs section.
You must be a conjurer, making up numbers and money left and right. The blue section, for your reference, is part of what is owned by "the public" - it is composed part of debt owned by the Federal Reserve, and part owned by other Federal agencies. The specific dollar amount owned by the Federal Reserve is 1.2 trillion, as jerz has tirelessly reminded you.
Any other interpretation of the graph isn't even plausible.
There's either one of two things going on here - you don't, as Arbiter suggest understand the meaning of "Federal Reserve AND other intragovernmental holdings", or you're so far deep in denial that a notorized and signed letter from Ron Paul himself wouldn't convince you that you're wrong.
culorut
quote:
You must be a conjurer, making up numbers and money left and right. The blue section, for your reference, is part of what is owned by "the public" - it is composed part of debt owned by the Federal Reserve, and part owned by other Federal agencies. The specific dollar amount owned by the Federal Reserve is 1.2 trillion, as jerz has tirelessly reminded you.
Wrong.
The FED's own a percentage of INTRAGOVERNMENTAL DEBT, Roughly 1.5 Trillion dollars.
The FED's own nearly all of the PUBLIC DEBT, roughly 5 Trillion dollars.
These two combined amount to the half of the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT. No where does it state Federal agencies own this, it CLEARLY states "FEDERAL RESERVE AND INTERGOVERNMENTAL HOLDINGS" which equals over 5 Trillion dollars presently.
Care to provide some proof on the exact numbers of what Federal agencies own a piece of if you believe you are correct?
As per the chart it is all under the THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Thank you.
jerZ07002
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
For the last time the chart shows very clearly "FEDERAL RESERVE AND INTRAGOVERNMENTAL HOLDINGS" in blue, it is under the same umbrella because it is all the FED's portion. Who taught you how to read charts by the way?
This accounts for 4.6 Trillion as of September 2008 and the FED's can use all of it as collateral to get credit because it is their physical money, they own it. Their holdings of physical money are all under their portion of the pie. This number is now well over 5 Trillion as we speak.
Why do you think this subject of Trillions of dollars missing made it all the way up (ON AIR) with the Inspector Office General of the FED being asked the same question directly?
Also I did point out that your link was correct in which the FEDS own a percentage of INTRAGOVERNMENTAL debt, you just forgot there is PUBLIC debt which they practically own all of and I am pointing it out to you for at least the tenth time already.
I posted numerous times a link to the Treasuries account of the Intragovernmental holdings from the same source (US TREASURY) you are getting your information from. Here it is again, scroll down to the bottom where it states the "GRAND TOTALS".
If you read correctly foreign countries own roughly 3 Trillion of the INTRAGOVERNMENAL debt. The public debt which is NOT even shown in this chart nor the one you used is owned by someone.....THE FED (they own the public debt).
The FEDS own roughly 5 Trillion between both Intragovernmental debt and public debt which is the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT. This is more or less equal to 5 Trillion dollars easily. Understand the chart yet?
They use their portion of the debt they own (roughly 50%) to print money because they hold the physical money as collateral. Thus there is 50 Trillion dollars in money supply available because of the multiplier (roughly 10X) which they then charge a (conservative) 5% interest rate on. This translates into 1.5 Trillion a year not including their transaction fees.
2 Trillion dollars a year easily in profit.
This is how fractional banking works in the central bank (FED). So I have to ask again where is the money? The source you and myself are both using shows they only returned 500 Billion dollars.
Pointing to some numbers on the US Treasuries links and what the FED's website claim they have in done in profit/return is clearly not adding up. Once it is broken down money is missing, Trillions of it.
The FEDERAL RESERVE owns 50% of the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT which is 5 Trillion dollars, not just their piece (1.5 Trillion of INTRAGOVERNMENTAL DEBT) of out of the one half of the TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT as you are claiming.
normally, i like to give people the benefit of the doubt but you really are stupid!
INTRAgovernmental means within one government (i.e., the US government). The other category of federal debt, public debt, includes all debt held by anyone other than the US government, which includes foreign governments (i.e., china and russia), and the federal reserve banks.
Note 3 in the link below lays it out pretty clearly. It provides that intragovernmental debt is held by the following US governmental agencies: SSA, OPM, HHS, DOO, HHS, DOE, DOL, OPM, HUD, FDIC, and DOS (see my previous post for the specific breakdown). Those agencies together hold all 4.287 trillion of treasuries classified as intragovernmental debt holdings. The remaining 7.019 trillion of "publicly held" federal debt (treasuries) includes both treasuries held by the fed (again, the link provides "The Federal Reserve Banks (FRB) owned $1,114 billion of Federal Debt securities Held by the Public as of May 31, 2009."), and federal debt held by foreign governments. If you add the 1.1 trillion of debt held by the federal reserve banks you get a total "federal reserve and intragovernmental holdings of about 5.4 trillion in debt, which is close enough to your neat little graphs.
Care to provide some proof on the exact numbers of what Federal agencies own a piece of if you believe you are correct?
Reposted for your reading pleasure:
"As of May 31, 2009, Intragovernmental Debt Holdings are owed to the following:
SSA: Federal Old Age & Survivors Insurance Trust Fund $2,244,656
OPM: Civil Service Retirement and Disability Fund 705,023
HHS: Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund 317,045
DOD: DOD Military Retirement Fund 247,499
SSA: Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund 211,735
DOD: DOD Medicare Retirement Fund 127,349
HHS: Federal Supplemental Medical Insurance 63,006
DOE: Nuclear Waste Disposal Fund, DOE 43,782
DOL: Unemployment Trust Fund 38,141
OPM: Employees Life Insurance Fund 35,773
OPM: Postal Service Retiree Health Benefits Fund 32,979
HUD: Federal Housing Administration - Liquidating Account 20,051
FDIC: Deposit Insurance Fund 17,589
DOL: Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation 16,198
OPM: Employees Health Benefits 15,631
Treasury: Exchange Stabilization 15,102
DOS: Foreign Service Retirement & Disability Fund 15,030
Other Programs and Funds 121,198]
Total Federal Debt Held By Federal Entities 4,287,787"
Additionally, the fed debt is considered a component of the 7 trillion debt held by the public (a separate category from above), and, again the link provides:
"The Federal Reserve Banks (FRB) owned $1,114 billion of Federal Debt securities Held by the Public as of May 31, 2009."
I guess you're simply going to believe whatever you want.
culorut
quote:
Total Federal Debt Held By Federal Entities 4,287,787"
Thank you, Federal Entities is the FEDERAL RESERVE.
4 Trillion plus the rougly 1.5 Trillion of Public debt they own equals 5 Trillion which they use as collateral for printing money.
You guys are so smart.
jerZ07002
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Thank you, Federal Entities is the FEDERAL RESERVE.
really? please explain how the social security administration, the federal housing administration, the department of energy, and the department of defense are part of the Federal Reserve Banking system?
culorut
You already answered your question.
quote:
Total Federal Debt Held By Federal Entities 4,287,787"
^^^^
That actually means the FED. Entities are the FED. If they were not why do you think 50% of the "blue" area in the chart is categorized under the FEDERAL RESERVE?
They use this total number (5 Trillion dollars) which they own to print money. They are not just using 1.5 Trillion of which they own to do this, otherwise there would not be 50 Trillion dollars of money supply available.
jerZ07002
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
You already answered your question.
^^^^
That actually means the FED. Entities are the FED. If they were not why do you think 50% of the "blue" area in the chart is categorized under the FEDERAL RESERVE?
They use this total number (5 Trillion dollars) which they own to print money. They are not just using 1.5 Trillion of which they own to do this, otherwise there would not be 50 Trillion dollars of money supply available.
i'm done - you're a ing moron. it's unfortunate you can't even take pkc's advice and go to school. i suspect you would have a difficult time being accepted to any accredited institution.
culorut
LOL, I guess you cannot disprove the FACT that they do own 50% then. You should try editing Wiki's page and see if your "accurate" claims hold true. Maybe have KFC help you while your at it.
