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Knee jerk reaction to Ped deaths coming? Councillor wants 10 kph less speed limits (pg. 10)
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| smuncky |
| quote: | Hume: Maybe we'd all be safer jaywalking
Illegal or not, jaywalking gets you to the other side
Perhaps Toronto police should heed their own advice and look both ways before they talk.
Well-intentioned though the force's Pedestrian Safety Blitz may be, it is a misguided and paternalistic exercise doomed to failure. The program, launched Wednesday after a rash of pedestrian deaths across the GTA, is flawed in its understanding of how people actually make their way through the city.
Despite what the police would have us believe, we are all jaywalkers. We have no choice; to negotiate the city on foot requires endless street crossing without benefit of traffic light, crosswalk or corner.
The police are now stopping jaywalkers and other pedestrians whose behaviour they don't like to hand out tickets and deliver a lecture on street safety. It's for our own good, of course. Pedestrians are naughty children who must be protected from themselves.
And sometimes we do need to be protected from ourselves. Anyone who saunters into the path of an oncoming streetcar while engrossed in a cellphone conversation is asking for trouble.
But the reality of jaywalking is quite the opposite. In fact, jaywalking can be much safer than crossing at a green light, corner or crosswalk.
That might sound counterintuitive, but the reason is simple: Jaywalkers assume nothing; those crossing legally assume everything.
Pedestrians at a green light take it for granted that vehicles will come to a stop, that drivers turning right or left will see them, and that their right-of-way will be respected. As we know, it's not.
By contrast, jaywalkers look both ways, wait for a break in the traffic and often make eye contact with drivers before proceeding.
The concept of "naked streets," or as the Dutch call them, woonerfs, is based on the same principle. Because street signs have been removed, drivers and pedestrians are forced to pay close attention to each other. Fewer accidents result.
No one should hold their breath waiting for naked streets to appear in Toronto; that's never going to happen. On the other hand, it would be worth employing a bit more subtlety and intelligence than the police have managed. Imposing fines and wagging fingers will accomplish nothing. Deaths will continue.
And let's not forget that the majority of the 14 pedestrians killed by drivers in the last few weeks were doing exactly what the law stipulated. They weren't jaywalking, though they might have been better off had that been the case.
The police response, which is to blame the victim, misses the point and reinforces tired old prejudices against pedestrians.
In recent days, officers have been telling Toronto pedestrians that it doesn't matter if they are in the right; cars are bigger and go faster. But, they remind us, it's pedestrians who get killed, not drivers.
That may be true, but one wonders whether the argument would hold if, for example, we were talking about domestic violence. Husbands tend to be bigger and stronger, so if you're a woman, just stay out of their way. Highly unlikely.
Not all pedestrian deaths are the drivers' fault, but that's not the point. The issue is that we don't share the roads. Simply banning pedestrians from the streets, as the police would like, might please drivers, but even they must occasionally climb out from behind the wheel.
We have learned not to expect too much from the police, but their handling of the pedestrian deaths has revealed a force well behind the times.
"Be smart and be safe," Elmer the Safety Elephant used to say. So far, we have achieved neither. |
the bolded part refers to subsection 27
| quote: | WHAT IS 'JAYWALKING' ANYWAY?
The term "jaywalking" is nebulous, but most people define it as "crossing the street when you're not supposed to."
But when exactly are you "not supposed" to cross the road?
There are many pedestrian offences that could get you fined, says Toronto Const. Scott Parrish.
For most people, the word "jaywalking" evokes visions of harried pedestrians darting between vehicles as they zigzag across the street instead of using a crosswalk. In such instances, you could be charged for "fail(ing) to yield to vehicles when crossing a roadway," resulting in a fine of $85, plus a surcharge.
But what if you're taking a shortcut across a quiet residential street in the dead of night? Technically, this isn't illegal because you are not interfering with the flow of traffic, Parrish explained.
However, if you happen to interrupt an oncoming car's path while doing so, that is punishable under a Toronto bylaw, he said.
Some people might also interpret jaywalking to mean disobeying traffic signals, punishable under the Ontario Highway Act.
Technically, it is illegal to step off the curb once the "stop" hand signal starts flashing, even if the crosswalk timer is still counting down, said traffic services Supt. Earl Witty.
Each crosswalk is timed differently, but the hand usually begins blinking after 7 to 10 seconds, he said.
Under the Highway Act, the fine for crossing against a hand signal is $35, plus a $15 victim surcharge, Parrish said.
- Jennifer Yang |
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...afer-jaywalking |
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| Orko |
| quote: | | No pedestrian approaching pedestrian control signals and facing a solid or flashing “don’t walk” indication shall enter the roadway |
That's complete bull. Half the time you get to the intersection and didn't get a chance to press the walk button, or it may be broken. Either way, most of the time there is plenty of time to walk across even if it was a solid hand the whole time.
Well at least now I know, and I can adjust my walking accordingly. Thanks Smunky! |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by smuncky
subsection 27 clearly states that. |
it clearly doesnt :) that is why I'm asking questions
lol @ technically, what a joke!
I'm continuing as always did - I've been crossing roads in Toronto for 6 years without a problem |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
it clearly doesnt :) that is why I'm asking questions
lol @ technically, what a joke!
I'm continuing as always did - I've been crossing roads in Toronto for 6 years without a problem |
It is very clear, if the hand is flashing, then you cannot enter the crosswalk, regardless of what is added to that physical sign. The count down is irrelevant because no where in the act is it mentioned by itself, to grant that timer any powers. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orko
The count down is irrelevant because no where in the act is it mentioned by itself, to grant that timer any powers. |
that's my point!!
because the pedestrian crossings have both it IS confusing
so flashing red means no go
but what is the point of the countdown? so everyone stands still and stares at each other?
I think I'm gonna ask the next cop I see this, to clarify once and for all! |
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| Jayx1 |
our society squabbles over countdown timers... meanwhile countries like china kick our asses by solving real problems for themselves.
I guess the opera does go on while Rome burns |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
our society squabbles over countdown timers... meanwhile countries like china kick our asses by solving real problems for themselves.
I guess the opera does go on while Rome burns |
And with that, you lost any credibility you had gained in this thread. China is a 100 years behind us on many issues, and that's why they have to deal with 'real' .
You are talking about freedom to be and live, and then you go and compare us to China? You cannot even get unfiltered search results in China. WTF is wrong with you? You have tried to make this type of comparison before, and it is always wrong, because we are so much further ahead in social issues.
Ok, economics? How about them holding $2trillion of worthless paper? Ok fine natural resources, they are mining the out of Africa, well guess what, we already have all the resources we need.
Get a clue and stay on track.
Yeah in china they do deal with real problems, like fake medicine being sold for children, or schools being built with cheap concrete, or illegal power plants. You want us to deal with that too?
Get the out of this country. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orko
And with that, you lost any credibility you had gained in this thread. China is a 100 years behind us on many issues, and that's why they have to deal with 'real' .
You are talking about freedom to be and live, and then you go and compare us to China? You cannot even get unfiltered search results in China. WTF is wrong with you? You have tried to make this type of comparison before, and it is always wrong, because we are so much further ahead in social issues.
Ok, economics? How about them holding $2trillion of worthless paper? Ok fine natural resources, they are mining the out of Africa, well guess what, we already have all the resources we need.
Get a clue and stay on track.
Yeah in china they do deal with real problems, like fake medicine being sold for children, or schools being built with cheap concrete, or illegal power plants. You want us to deal with that too?
Get the out of this country. |
You make great and valid points. But on a macro scale, China is starting to own us. They are rapidly growing their economy. The innovation there is incredible. When i was there, i couldnt believe how advanced their cities were.
I dont at all agree with their governing structure. But lets face the facts. We do everything we can to stifle economic growth, turn down new projects, regulate the hell out of everything. Our infrastructure is crumbling, debt is mounting, jobs disappearing. Meanwhile we squabble about bike lanes and smoking. Countries like china and india are kicking our ass because we are letting them.
My point is, instead of focussing the headlines of the evening on stupid idiotic things, lets start focussing on how we as a society can renew ourselves and become more competitive to deal with the rest of the world. Lets get our heads out of our asses! |
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| LKD |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I guess the opera does go on while Rome burns |
and Nero plays the fiddle... |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
My point is, instead of focussing the headlines of the evening on stupid idiotic things, lets start focussing on how we as a society can renew ourselves and become more competitive to deal with the rest of the world. Lets get our heads out of our asses! |
Ah...who created this thread?
If you want to steer people away, don't create threads like this, and then take people on wild goose chases for arguments. You are just adding fuel to the file, the don't walk signal being a prime example. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orko
Ah...who created this thread?
If you want to steer people away, don't create threads like this, and then take people on wild goose chases for arguments. You are just adding fuel to the file, the don't walk signal being a prime example. |
yes i started this thread as a reaction to the kneejerk squabbling that is happening thanks to the "poisson burst" of ped deaths.
In reality they need to change the law to fix thr problem. Not slap on a bunch of bandages over an infected wound.
get it done and move on!
But not here... we have to make it a week long event with fines up the yin yang to boot.
If we had competant leadership, these non issues that become issues wouldnt exist as often as they do. |
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| Dark_Archonis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
our society squabbles over countdown timers... meanwhile countries like china kick our asses by solving real problems for themselves.
I guess the opera does go on while Rome burns |
:haha: :haha: :haha:
To that post, I respond with ignorance is bliss for the common person, for the masses. You're not going to change Toronto, and Toronto likely isn't going to change either.
As you stated, the opera goes on while Rome burns, and in Toronto people are too busy paying attention to the opera rather than the fire ;). |
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