Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Are you drunk? For the third time, how do you work out how many people it's possible to entertain?
Are you drunk? I said there isn't a fixed number/formula. You're taking the expression way too literally. When someone tells you to do something "as soon as possible" do you ask them how they define the shortest possible amount of time for a given task? No, it just says that the sooner the better. In this case, it's the same. When someone says it needs to be sold to as many listeners as possible, the underlying idea is that the more people buying it, the better.
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The maximum number of people it's possible to entertain is everyone on Earth, and since I am not entertained by Lady Gaga she is a ing failure. Argument over.
Do you even listen to pop music? If you don't, you're not even part of the target audience!
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Fridges are supposed to sell. Cars are supposed to sell. Any product is supposed to sell. If you bought a malfunctioning piece of fridge, is it good because it has got into stores and sold millions of units? No, it sucks because it can't keep your food cool properly. There is no seperate rule-set for pop music compared to all other music. Good and successful are not the same thing.
Fridges are supposed to keep your food cold and cars are supposed to take you to places. If your fridge doesn't keep your food cool, then it isn't a good fridge. Pop music is supposed to be popular: if it is popular, then it is good pop music.
And, you can't judge all music by the same standards, that's your mistake here, thinking that pop music can be judged by some lofty set of rules: you don't judge dance music based on how revolutionary it is, you judge it based on whether or not it makes people dance; on the other hand, you don't judge classical music based on whether or not it makes people dance. It's that simple.
leph555
If I don't like it then it must be complete :o
RapidFire
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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
How do you know what she is trying to do? She has created something nobody else has ever done in the way she does it. And good pop? She's pwning the billboards with consecutive top 10 singles, and you say...it's not good pop? Does not compute.
and what is that exactly? none of her ideas are original or particularly interesting. she's just weird for the sake of being weird.
abstract art in videos? its been done to death. excessive sexuality? check. surrealistic imagery? yep.
I know that its impossible to be 100% original. "every poet is a theif, every artist is a cannibal" but its in the way you utilize the ideas that you're borrowing and transform them in to something thought provoking that makes for good art. she hasn't done that.
her music is also as run of the mill as you can get. somebody in this thread described it best; ear grinding vocals over generic electro beats
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Originally posted by Lira
It was not a fallacious claim: pop music is supposed to sell. If it does sell, then it is good pop music. Fin.
I disagree. why is the measure of good pop music how much money it makes? like everything else, there's the good and the bad. quality pop records vs. disposable jingles. it has no correlation to the amount of material sold.
like I said, Madonna made the good stuff, MJ did as well. Lady GaGa and Britney Spears on the other hand create throwaway, substance-less music. its evident to any serious connoisseur.
yeah you can argue that it's down to personal preference but without getting into the philosophy of what makes something 'good', certain things are just tasteless and not on par with the standard. call it a hidden law
SYSTEM-J
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Originally posted by Lira
Do you even listen to pop music? If you don't, you're not even part of the target audience!
I listen to Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin, who are far more popular than Lady Gaga. You act as though "pop music" is so easy to define and nail down. How exactly do you know what Lady Gaga's intentions were, anyway?
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Fridges are supposed to keep your food cold and cars are supposed to take you to places.
That's what they're supposed to do for you. They're supposed to make their manufacturers profits. We don't call manufacturers that over their customers for profits good, though we might angrily call them successful.
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And, you can't judge all music by the same standards, that's your mistake here, thinking that pop music can be judged by some lofty set of rules: you don't judge dance music based on how revolutionary it is, you judge it based on whether or not it makes people dance; you don't judge rap music on how well the rapper can play an instrument, you judge it by its lyrics; and so on.
You can if the standards are universally applicable.
Lira
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Originally posted by RapidFire
I disagree. why is the measure of good pop music how much money it makes?
Because that's what it is made for :conf:
Pop music need not be experimental and revolutionary.
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Originally posted by RapidFire
like I said, Madonna made the good stuff, MJ did as well. Lady GaGa and Britney Spears on the other hand create throwaway, substance-less music. its evident to any serious connoisseur.
Indeed, Madonna and MJ made music with so much more substance. "Down on my knees, I'm gonna take you there" and "It doesn't matter who's wrong or right, just beat it" are sentences that exhale deep insights on the human condition :p
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Originally posted by RapidFire
yeah you can argue that it's down to personal preference but without getting into the philosophy of what makes something 'good', certain things are just tasteless and not on par with the standard.
I'm not even arguing that it is down to personal preference. It isn't, but you can't judge music for something it wasn't aiming for.
Can you really complain that the Moonlight Sonada isn't cheerful?
Lira
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I listen to Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin, who are far more popular than Lady Gaga. You act as though "pop music" is so easy to define and nail down. How exactly do you know what Lady Gaga's intentions were, anyway?
Well, she's loving the attention she's getting. It's safe to assume she was, at least, hoping she'd get some public approval when she first started.
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
That's what they're supposed to do for you. They're supposed to make their manufacturers profits. We don't call manufacturers that over their customers for profits good, though we might angrily call them successful.
Well, if you keep selling malfunctioning fridges, the sales plummet, it's usually as simple as that. Have you ever seen a product that doesn't please its costumer become a best seller?
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You can if the standards are universally applicable.
Unfortunately, they aren't ;)
SYSTEM-J
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Originally posted by Lira
Well, she's loving the attention she's getting. It's safe to assume she was, at least, hoping she'd get some public approval when she first started.
Conclusive proof that she has no artistic considerations if ever I heard it.
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Well, if you keep selling malfunctioning fridges, the sales plummet, it's usually as simple as that. Have you ever seen a product that doesn't please its costumer become a best seller?
Windows Millenium Edition.
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Unfortunately, they aren't ;)
For someone who seems intelligent, you have spectacularly small-minded views on certain art-forms.
Lira
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Conclusive proof that she has no artistic considerations if ever I heard it.
Art?
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Windows Millenium Edition.
It was so much of a best-seller that Microsoft had to release Windows XP to replace it the following year, despite the fact that they usually wait around 3 years before making their previous products obsolete. (Windows 95 -> Windows 98 (3 years) / Windows XP -> Windows Vista (4 years) / Windows Vista -> Windows 7 (3 years))
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
For someone who seems intelligent, you have spectacularly small-minded views on certain art-forms.
I could say the very same thing about you: How can you consider pop music and classical music equivalent in any sense?
RapidFire
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Originally posted by Lira
Because that's what it is made for :conf:
Pop music need not be experimental and revolutionary.
who says that thats what its made for? a lot of musicians make pop with genuine artistic intentions, not just to make a buck.
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Originally posted by Lira
Indeed, Madonna and MJ made music with so much more substance. "Down on my knees, I'm gonna take you there" and "It doesn't matter who's wrong or right, just beat it" are sentences that exhale deep insights on the human condition :p
the lyrics are accessible but the musicianship has a strength to it. that's the most important part. as I said in the "lyrics" thread in MD, music is meant to transcend languages. I'm sure there are a ton of people who listen to Madonna and MJ songs and have no idea what they're saying but they recognize their aesthetic worth.
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Originally posted by Lira
I'm not even arguing that it is down to personal preference. It isn't, but you can't judge music for something it wasn't aiming for.
Can you really complain that the Moonlight Sonada isn't cheerful?
well if we're going to assume what she's aiming for then i'd say its to be considered a true artist. she wouldn't be making these kind of videos if that weren't the case. she's just failing miserably at it.
you're saying that pop music has to reach the mases or that it has to be of a certain quality (namely what we consider bad) in order to do its job right, and I think that's wrong.
Comrade Stalin
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Originally posted by RapidFire
and what is that exactly? none of her ideas are original or particularly interesting. she's just weird for the sake of being weird.
abstract art in videos? its been done to death. excessive sexuality? check. surrealistic imagery? yep.
I know that its impossible to be 100% original. "every poet is a theif, every artist is a cannibal" but its in the way you utilize the ideas that you're borrowing and transform them in to something thought provoking that makes for good art. she hasn't done that.
her music is also as run of the mill as you can get. somebody in this thread described it best; ear grinding vocals over generic electro beats
Her persona, of course. I love it. But it's a subjective thing. What I don't like is "manufactured talent", and she definitely doesn't belong in that camp.
jupiterone
god i hate her, like seriously, i just really, really, really, really, really, despise this bitch
*loads up ultrabeat 808*
*loads up EXS24*
profit
paulandrews
Whoa guys, this is some deep . Gaga is just shallow electropop.
But seriously, as I already said here in another thread, I find fascinating how she embodies today's pop culture and at the same time is a mockery of it. Like all that product placement is so blatant and over the top (LOOK VIRGIN MOBILE) that it is ironic in a way.
She embraced the rumour that she had a dick and turned it into profit. Basically she used the biggest weapon of tabloid media - a lie, gamed everyone and made fun of it. She is the very definition of camp:
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Camp is a critical analysis and at the same time a big joke. Camp takes “something” (normally a social norm, object, phrase, or style), does a very acute analysis of what the “something” is, then takes the “something” and presents it humorously. As a performance, camp is meant to be an allusion. A person being campy has a generalization they are intentionally making fun of or manipulating. Though camp is a joke it is also a very serious analysis done by people who are willing to make a joke out of themselves to prove a point.
She is a sexually liberated woman who many find repulsive, and I can sort of see why - this is still a society where women are objectified and subjected to patriarchal gaze, therefore if a woman shows sexual confidence, she is then labeled as a whore or a tranny (OMG SHE ACTS WEIRD SHE MUST HAVE A COCK).
She's basically the most entertaining pop star/celebrity since Idontknowwho just for the hilarious reactions and discussions she provokes.
I would actually love if she experimented more with the music, but I can live with soulless electropop and take her for what she is. I guess I got tired of listening to legitimately good music.
