These are 7 different scenarios in which people, in a way or another, ended themselves. But, we're somewhat reluctant to say Socrates committed suicide, let alone Jesus. Why? These two individuals are the cornerstone of our intellectual and spiritual heritage, in a culture that frowns upon suicide, yet their acts are regarded as noble. What gives?
What, in your opinion, is suicide? Have all these people really killed themselves?
You make a good point, and I like this thread.
Nrg2Nfinit
quote:
Originally posted by jennypie
P.S. I'm a fag and I love this song.
RAVE and die
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
I think the poll is overly simple trying to quantify something which is probably the only surety of life itself, you are going to die at some point, the result is always just going to be a process of circumstance and personal choice, just as the management of your own life.
Sticking a label on it just makes it convenient to describe it.
Actually, I just want to see what counts as a given word to most people here, and giving them space to elaborate their views: Jenny, for example, pointed out that euthanasia could also figure somewhere in the list.
I could also ask what is murder, or what is music, using the same method. The reason why I chose suicide is because there has been much debate on here lately, and it's no longer rude to approach the subject head on.
idoru
quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I recall a segment in Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle where he details the sudden downturn in morale amongst the Japanese after the surrender (and suicide?) of their emperor/government at the end of WW2 - how suicide rates almost instantly skyrocketed. Bloom's point was in a sort of collective reaction in humans, especially in cellular cultures united by strong emotional events such as war, nationalism, etc. But the evidence is quite compelling that humans, as multi-cellular organisms, exhibit many of the same symptoms as individual cells - that is why I brought up apoptosis earlier. The sudden and utter void of hope compels people to kill themselves every day - it's why businessmen can bring themselves to leap out of windows after major financial catastrophes, why widows might leap off of cliffs, etc. Calling it melancholy is a gross understatement - it's as though they feel they have no other option whatsoever, not just the contemplation of what the world would be without them, but the utter realization that there is an immediate exit to the crestfallen awareness of failure.
That was ing beautiful, man.
pkcRAISTLIN
But Socrates was forced to drink poison. He didn’t do it for the lulz, the state killed him.
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
But Socrates was forced to drink poison. He didn’t do it for the lulz, the state killed him.
Reason why I described him as a different scenario altogether. Still, he did it all by himself
quote:
Crito made a sign to the servant, who was standing by; and he went out, and having been absent for some time, returned with the jailer carrying the cup of poison. Socrates said: You, my good friend, who are experienced in these matters, shall give me directions how I am to proceed. The man answered: You have only to walk about until your legs are heavy, and then to lie down, and the poison will act. At the same time he handed the cup to Socrates, who in the easiest and gentlest manner, without the least fear or change of colour or feature, looking at the man with all his eyes, Echecrates, as his manner was, took the cup and said: What do you say about making a libation out of this cup to any god? May I, or not? The man answered: We only prepare, Socrates, just so much as we deem enough. I understand, he said: but I may and must ask the gods to prosper my journey from this to the other world—even so—and so be it according to my prayer. Then raising the cup to his lips, quite readily and cheerfully he drank off the poison. And hitherto most of us had been able to control our sorrow; but now when we saw him drinking, and saw too that he had finished the draught, we could no longer forbear, and in spite of myself my own tears were flowing fast; so that I covered my face and wept, not for him, but at the thought of my own calamity in having to part from such a friend. Nor was I the first; for Crito, when he found himself unable to restrain his tears, had got up, and I followed; and at that moment, Apollodorus, who had been weeping all the time, broke out in a loud and passionate cry which made cowards of us all. Socrates alone retained his calmness: What is this strange outcry? he said. I sent away the women mainly in order that they might not misbehave in this way, for I have been told that a man should die in peace. Be quiet then, and have patience. When we heard his words we were ashamed, and refrained our tears; and he walked about until, as he said, his legs began to fail, and then he lay on his back, according to the directions, and the man who gave him the poison now and then looked at his feet and legs; and after a while he pressed his foot hard, and asked him if he could feel; and he said, No; and then his leg, and so upwards and 118upwards, and showed us that he was cold and stiff. And he felt them himself, and said: When the poison reaches the heart, that will be the end. He was beginning to grow cold about the groin, when he uncovered his face, for he had covered himself up, and said—they were his last words—he said: Crito, I owe a to Asclepius; will you remember to pay the debt? The debt shall be paid, said Crito; is there anything else? There was no answer to this question; but in a minute or two a movement was heard, and the attendants uncovered him; his eyes were set, and Crito closed his eyes and mouth.
As Domesticated said, one reason why you may not think of this act as a suicide is because he can be considered a martyr. But, the judgement notwithstanding, he ended his own life with his own hands.
eROs.au
quote:
Originally posted by Sunsnail
the seals have developed a taste for mammal blood
:stongue: :stongue: :stongue:
Danny Ocean
quote:
Originally posted by Domesticated
In response to the original post, the difference is that Jesus and Socrates were martyrs. I'm surprised no one said this earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by Danny Ocean
he did not lie about his beliefs thus leading to him getting sentenced to death dosen't qualify as suicide in my opinion.
= Martyr obviously, its implied.
Lira, the point is they would have been killed either way, not to mention Jesus went through torture before death, that dosen't make him a masochist. You are looking at it very black and white. Don't you think Socrates would've been killed another way if he threw the glass away?
Death is inevitable so might as well go a martyr. Che Guevara persuaded the shooters to kill him, is that suicide as well according to you? He's another martyr.
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by Danny Ocean
Lira, the point is they would have been killed either way, not to mention Jesus went through torture before death, that dosen't make him a masochist. You are looking at it very black and white. Don't you think Socrates would've been killed another way if he threw the glass away?
Yes, I do. And I'm not saying he's a masochist, I'm just asking if you consider the way he died a suicide.
quote:
Originally posted by Danny Ocean
Death is inevitable so might as well go a martyr. Che Guevara persuaded the shooters to kill him, is that suicide as well according to you? He's another martyr.
Hmm... this is even trickier, and yet another good call. There's the so-called "Suicide by Cop" in which you don't actively kill yourself, but you put yourself in a situation where you're bound to be shot.
Can it really be considered suicide if you're indirectly causing your own death? Well, that's a very good question!
SuspicionVandit
quote:
Originally posted by jennypie
P.S. I'm a fag and I love this song.
i'm not a fag and I love the TRANCE REMIX WOO
Lomeli
One man's suicide is another man's relief.
Chimney
Albert Camus had interesting ideas around this subject, but in my eyes, most of the time it's nothing more than a tragic chain of events that lead to such an act. Suicide, philosophically put, is the choice of not living anymore, to disappear as an entity.
Your opinions are highly subjective when it comes to suicide, since you consider acts by one's own hands leading to death to be this. However, in the modern era we all live in a lifestyle that advances the stage of death (alcohol, abusive substances, unhealthy sedimentaristic way of life)most of these things being manually and morally accepted by ourselves.
Jesus didn't commit suicide as I see it. He died for what he believed in and seeing this as an act of suicide I have to disagree. Suicide is seen as a death at your own hand, a disrespectful (religious context) and often sorrowful way to end oneself. The general idea of what happened to Jesus doesn't fit into the modern context of "suicide".
