|
Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq - 2.5 million views in 3 days (pg. 6)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Kismet7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
Kill yourself. |
No thanks filthy shill, I quite enjoy my life. |
|
|
| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
An absolutely incredible amount of ignorance here and ridiculous lack of respect for some of the bravest people in journalism.
I really do not blame the chopper pilots here, these things happen in war, worse cases of full on friendly fire have occurred. The guys certainly didn't make themselves look good in the way they went about working, but unfortunately I just don't think our pilots get the kind of training necessary to deal with situations like these. What happened here was a tragic sequence of events that led to the killing of innocents that was bound to happen sooner or later amidst the chaos in Iraq at that time. But to say that a photographer like Namir Noor-Eldeen was embedding himself with known terrorists is absolutely absurd. This guy was putting his ass on the line to bring us some absolutely incredible images of this war, up close and personal. He did get extremely close to the enemy and must have had some serious ing balls. God forbid someone try and capture some real images of what was happening in the streets outside the green zone. Show some ing respect.
This guy was an absolutely fantastic photographer, look at the photographs here via the fullscreen link: |
What is absurd? He obviously was embedded with the enemy which was trying to kill our military soldiers. You can call it "putting his ass on the line" instead, which to be fair he definitely was (and has huge balls for doing so)... but dude, this is the risk they knowingly put themselves in during wartime. I'm not saying they "are" technically enemy combatants, but how are our military guys supposed to know otherwise when they are WITH guys toting RPG's and guns, and during chaotic gun battles within proximity of weapons being used against our military? From the Centcom report, some of the statement from the Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team:
| quote: | | While on site we were under constant small arms fire from the east. Medical treatment was rendered to injured AIF. EOD blew up RPG launchers, RPG rockets and AK-47s. I did not see any evidence that any of the dead or injured were non-combatants. All were in the vicinity of weapons (AK-47's/RPGs) and there no visible press passes, or othe rindicators that they were non-combatants. I believe all were involved [were combatants]. There were two RPG launchers, multiple rounds for them and an AK-47 on scene. Some of the males were described by Hotel 2-6 as the ones having pop shots at his PLT all day. All males were found within 20 meter radius to the weapons on the ground. Between the radio traffic from Crazy Horse (Apache helicopter) before and during the engagement as well as what I took note of on scene, I believe that all males involved were not in any way non-combatants. |
They (the reporters) hadn't grabbed the guns yet, but they (our soldiers) had already been engaged and fired upon, and per the rules of engagement those people who were unknowingly reporters on the scene, WITH the enemy and in close proximity to hot weapons can be fired upon. The US soldiers didn't give them a chance to pick them up and use them, which is what they're trained to do. The enemy didn't give a that they were journalists and are happy to use them as propoganda for their cause. It's sad man, but it's true. The fact of the matter remains: the Wikileaks movie is an edited fabrication that does not tell the truth. It has been successful in its goal to make believers out of knee-jerk reactionaries that our soldiers are blood thirsty animals that killed for sport, and the posting of the official Centom report in its entirety dispelling that bull isn't making them blink- they can shoot the messenger all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Also dude, what the is this bull link you provided? |
If you don't want to read the opinions mixed in there, which I understand as some of them are stupid, just read the Centcom report on the other link which details the investigation in full.
| quote: | | What? :conf: Please do not tell me you read this and thought it was a thoughtful expose on the subject. Jesus christ. Absolute ing garbage. |
No it was more for the breakdown in pictures of the scenes that Wikileaks edited. Some distasteful opinions, but people are understandably upset over a blatant smear on our military like this. Again, all the details can be seen opinion free in the linked Centcom report. |
|
|
| Comrade Stalin |
| Reporters aren't supposed to be for or against one side or the other. I hope Reuters does more of this kind of reporting. Get someone into the ranks of Taliban so we can truly understand the conflict. |
|
|
| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
What is absurd? He obviously was embedded with the enemy which was trying to kill our military soldiers. You can call it "putting his ass on the line" instead, which to be fair he definitely was (and has huge balls for doing so)... but dude, this is the risk they knowingly put themselves in during wartime. I'm not saying they "are" technically enemy combatants, but how are our military guys supposed to know otherwise when they are WITH guys toting RPG's and guns, and during chaotic gun battles within proximity of weapons being used against our military? From the Centcom report, some of the statement from the Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team: |
You just spouted, almost verbatim, the same bull that the guy in your 2nd link wrote, and so I wanted to point out that, no, being a journalist/photographer working in extremely close proximity to the enemy does not automatically make you either a propaganda tool or an enemy combatant. Unless you consider someone taking actual pictures of the war 'propaganda'. Also as per the common definition of an 'embedded' journalist, it pertains to journalists attached to a military unit during war time. I.e. living and sleeping with the guys. Just because these reuters guys were in the same street as insurgents during a fire fight does not make them 'embedded.
Again, I have acknowledged that this was tragic and simply a common mistake made in war time, I'm disputing your and other's ridiculous claim that somehow these guys got what was coming to them or were 'automatic' targets for putting their asses on the line to bring us some of the best war time photography in history.
The threats they faced from insurgents and terrorists were exponentially greater than taking friendly fire from US forces...
Additionally, though I give the idiots doing the shooting the benefit of the doubt, because I understand the fact that they simply could not be expected to know these people were friendly, that doesn't absolve them of absolutely ridiculous and classless behavior. You can bet that if I were at the controls the tone would have been markedly different. It is simply not right to derive that kind of humor and joy at cutting people down. Comes with the technology of firing at faceless figurines via CCTV screen from extremely long distances maybe, but it might be good for some of our men and women to gain a little more perspective on the power in their hands. |
|
|
| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
You just spouted, almost verbatim, the same bull that the guy in your 2nd link wrote, and so I wanted to point out that, no, being a journalist/photographer working in extremely close proximity to the enemy does not automatically make you either a propaganda tool or an enemy combatant. Unless you consider someone taking actual pictures of the war 'propaganda'. Also as per the common definition of an 'embedded' journalist, it pertains to journalists attached to a military unit during war time. I.e. living and sleeping with the guys. Just because these reuters guys were in the same street as insurgents during a fire fight does not make them 'embedded.
Again, I have acknowledged that this was tragic and simply a common mistake made in war time, I'm disputing your and other's ridiculous claim that somehow these guys got what was coming to them or were 'automatic' targets for putting their asses on the line to bring us some of the best war time photography in history. |
They were paid by Reuters to do their work from that vantage point; they didn't "happen to be in the same street" by coincidence during that battle. Whether or not they were sleeping in the same quarters is splitting hairs.
But you're misunderstanding me Clovis. First of all, I NEVER said they got what they deserve; I said it was sad but they know the risk they put themselves in. Secondly, I acknowledged that they were not "technically" enemy combatants... but without uniforms, visible press credentials, and being with the same group of guys that are shooting at our soldiers, the soldiers must assume as much. How are they supposed to look at a couple of guys tangled up in the chaotic mess and say, "Those two look like reporters! Cease fire!" I'm not cool with them dying man, let's make that clear. Photojournalism is worse off today with the loss of that one guy with the stellar reputation that you're pointint out. But the blame can't be attributed to our military for this like it's being. |
|
|
| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
But the blame can't be attributed to our military for this like it's being. |
The photojournalist isn't the only issue here. |
|
|
| w_ashley |
what battle?
What rpg's... how is a tripod stand a rpg?
It was clearly misidentification of weapons as cameras and recording gear. My gosh.
You think apaches would be able to recognize the cellphone in use and gather intel on the person talking on the cell phone. From the video it was just lack of sufficient identification the same thing that has caused problems with freindly fire. They just arn't IDing stuff well enough and they are acting without ground based intel. It is clearly reckless behaviour. There was no immediate threat to anyones safety, they just totally jumped the gun stupidly without proper IDing or identification. Would the police do that? Seeing people walking with what they think are weapons and blow them away without trying to intervene. Hell no.
They are bloody lazy and irresponsible with an air based assault when there was no immediate threat. Based on the video. |
|
|
| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
what battle?
What rpg's... how is a tripod stand a rpg?
It was clearly misidentification of weapons as cameras and recording gear. My gosh.
You think apaches would be able to recognize the cellphone in use and gather intel on the person talking on the cell phone. From the video it was just lack of sufficient identification the same thing that has caused problems with freindly fire. They just arn't IDing stuff well enough and they are acting without ground based intel. It is clearly reckless behaviour. |
Read the official Centcom report. You clearly have not. It answers all of your questions. |
|
|
| w_ashley |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Read the official Centcom report. You clearly have not. It answers all of your questions. |
link. |
|
|
| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
The photojournalist isn't the only issue here. |
Expanding upon this, you realize that a large part of the outrage pertains to what was said during the video (the jokes, laughter, etc.), right? |
|
|
| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
link. |
http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/...vestigation.pdf
And do your quote that there was no immediate threat (not sure why you think you know that)....
From the Centcom report, some of the statement from the Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team:
| quote: | | While on site we were under constant small arms fire from the east. Medical treatment was rendered to injured AIF. EOD blew up RPG launchers, RPG rockets and AK-47s. I did not see any evidence that any of the dead or injured were non-combatants. All were in the vicinity of weapons (AK-47's/RPGs) and there no visible press passes, or othe rindicators that they were non-combatants. I believe all were involved [were combatants]. There were two RPG launchers, multiple rounds for them and an AK-47 on scene. Some of the males were described by Hotel 2-6 as the ones having pop shots at his PLT all day. All males were found within 20 meter radius to the weapons on the ground. Between the radio traffic from Crazy Horse (Apache helicopter) before and during the engagement as well as what I took note of on scene, I believe that all males involved were not in any way non-combatants. |
|
|
|
| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/...vestigation.pdf
And do your quote that there was no immediate threat (not sure why you think you know that)....
From the Centcom report, some of the statement from the Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team: |
I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here for the fun of it...
What if the report isn't 100% honest? How can you be certain that what he states is the absolute truth? |
|
|
|
|
