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Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq - 2.5 million views in 3 days (pg. 7)
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
Expanding upon this, you realize that a large part of the outrage pertains to what was said during the video (the jokes, laughter, etc.), right? |
Yeah... I do. And I'm not by any means trying to say that I condone that , but during war there are some pretty crazy/strange/ed up ways people cope with and respond to bullets and RPG's whizzing by their heads. A cleverly edited video, such as what Wikileaks put out, could easily use that to paint a picture to get the kinds of reactions they want. |
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| Lilith |
| Maybe I'm blind or its the video, but I didn't see those guys carrying so much as a sharp stick, let along a big weapon like an RPG. |
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| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Yeah... I do. And I'm not by any means trying to say that I condone that ... |
Just had to clarify. Now onto my second question. :p |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here for the fun of it...
What if the report isn't 100% honest? How can you be certain that what he states is the absolute truth? |
The interviews from the other people involved are all consistent and also backed up by the sequence of digital images. Why are they guilty until proven innocent here? There is uber sensitivity about this stuff after all that Abu Ghriab mess, and I believe that if there was some real teeth to this, those soldiers would be put on trial like the Marines were a year ago for that other thing. |
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| w_ashley |
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...pdf&hl=en&gl=ca
The "if at all avoidable"
This was avoidable by proper intelligence gathering and identification.
This just appears as a trigger happy action.
Opening up with autocannons while removing a potential threat, did not try to limit collatoral damage. It actually demonstrates US ground forces as incapable of actual combat. Which I don't think is the case.
The actions I would expect would be continued monitoring and deploying forces to stragetically take out those individuals with weapons if they were not able to be immobilized. Gathering ground based positive identification would be prudent. Having available tear gas or other immobilizers and firing them would directly hamper combat capacity without endangering life.
There are many approaches that could have been taken that opening up on a group with autocannons wouldn't have been necisary to contain and prevent and capture.
It was just really poor intelligence in combat in terms of the overall effect. It is unfortunate the US conducts itself so recklessly.
There are non USDOD major security forces in IRAQ. Even having a weapon shouldn't be an automatic death sentence unless there is imminent threat it is non proportional use of force an no personnel were in direct threat. |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
The interviews from the other people involved are all consistent and also backed up by the sequence of digital images. Why are they guilty until proven innocent here? There is uber sensitivity about this stuff after all that Abu Ghriab mess, and I believe that if there was some real teeth to this, those soldiers would be put on trial like the Marines were a year ago for that other thing. |
For what other thing, for Abu Graihb?
I don't think anyone is accusing them of being guilty of anything. But just like at Abu Graihb, there are systemic errors here that allow these events to happen than deserve a closer look. The rules of engagement vary greatly within wartime, but was the correct amount of caution and professionalism exercised here? Debatable... |
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| DjWhooCares |
to be fair, i rlly dont give two s to what they said throughout the video. lets not forget that some of these troops have a deep seeded hatred towards them (insurgents, terrorists) and perhaps a few of them have lost comrades to them. during battle, adrenaline kicks in, you're not going to stop and think twice about making sure no one hears you be a complete heartless dick.
what ticked me off was the fact that to our armed forces, it is fine to shoot upon a group or individual just because you happen to see what you think is a weapon. clearly no intel was gathered, and i wouldn't be damn surprised if this happened more often than not.
you can clearly see the van pull up only to help the wounded, that is all. not one individual got out of that truck with a 'weapon' on them, yet its perfectly fine to waste them too.
:( sad |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
For what other thing, for Abu Graihb?
I don't think anyone is accusing them of being guilty of anything. But just like at Abu Graihb, there are systemic errors here that allow these events to happen than deserve a closer look. The rules of engagement vary greatly within wartime, but was the correct amount of caution and professionalism exercised here? Debatable... |
Was talking about the Marines from the Haditha incident (who were cleared of wrongdoing at trial). |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjWhooCares
you can clearly see the van pull up only to help the wounded, that is all. not one individual got out of that truck with a 'weapon' on them, yet its perfectly fine to waste them too.
:( sad |
Actually it's not perfectly fine, that is contrary to most rules of engagement normally used. |
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| GoSpeedGo! |
This is how media reported about this incident back in 2007.
| quote: | During the fighting, an Apache helicopter fired bursts of 30mm rounds toward several people who had been directing machine-gun fire and rocket-propelled grenades at U.S. soldiers. The helicopter also fired on a silver Toyota minivan in the area as several people approached the vehicle, soldiers said.
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The Apache crew fired because militants "were endangering the stability of Iraq" and because they had positive identification that the militants "had weapons and were using them against coalition and Iraqi security forces," said Maj. Brent Cummings, the battalion's executive officer. "No innocent civilians were killed on our part deliberately. We took great pains to prevent that. I know that two children were hurt, and we did everything we could to help them. I don't know how the children were hurt."
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Seriously, if you're defending this for whatever reason, you're a horrible person. |
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| DjWhooCares |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Actually it's not perfectly fine, that is contrary to most rules of engagement normally used. |
well u know what i mean, in the video it looks as if its perfectly fine as long as no one finds out. |
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| w_ashley |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ WHOO CARE
well u know what i mean, in the video it looks as if its perfectly fine as long as no one finds out.
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yeah cause civilians know they need to have a cross or crescent on them in red and white to help other unarmed civilians who just got shot???
try that in your neighbourhood and see what makes sense?
See apache much? You think they would have been like oh these people just got obliterated by apache autocannons lets get out and see if they'd like some help from bleeding to death the apache won't mind.
They clearly had no idea what was going on. It would seem.
Give me a break it is disgusting.
You shouldn't be killing unarmed soilders either. Just cause they are with the bad guys doesn't mean they should be killed the exact opposite is true. If they are not a threat you don't kill them. That is the standard of international law - that is called summary execution and is a war crime.
Every effort should be given to take them into a custody, not kill them when they are unarmed. You are suppose to ascertain any threat and if a signifigant threat does not take what you do is "capture them"
blowing up unarmed people with autocannons is not "perfectly fine" if you are playing strawman bravo but if not I weep for your evil.
Apparent americans like you are people who make 911 justified.
Gotta go peace out. And point is all this stuff is all fine and dandy or america is evil and stupid etc.. it is more why are they so bloody reckless and using israeli proportional force methodologies.
It is hard to expect restrain from an invader. Liberators don't kill the people they are liberating unless you are a liberator of the bonds of life. |
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