|
Catholics are outraged...again (pg. 6)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
One of the most popular counter-arguments for the preservation of God is the following: Without God, there's no morality. |
yeah, a common counter-argument from stupid people. |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
yeah, a common counter-argument from stupid people. |
Who said we can't learn from "stupidity"? This is a very good clue about what religion may be all about ;) |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| Meh, all claims like that do is annoy the out of me. |
|
|
| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Meh, all claims like that do is annoy the out of me. |
That's because you're without God and therefor not able to comprehend them. ;) |
|
|
| Lira |
Wait, I'm without God too, but I don't think I'm that unable to understand them =/
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Meh, all claims like that do is annoy the out of me. |
Without God, there's no pkc off pissing :D |
|
|
| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Wait, I'm without God too, but I don't think I'm that unable to understand them =/ |
Then this is the work of the Devil. He has beguiled you.
Isn't it odd that some of the religious people's arguments equate to ad hominem attacks - and I'm a religious person? =\ |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Then this is the work of the Devil. He has beguiled you. |
Wooo, he's good!
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Isn't it odd that some of the religious people's arguments equate to ad hominem attacks - and I'm a religious person? =\ |
Is this an ad hominem suicide? |
|
|
| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Is this an ad hominem suicide? |
I'm religious but I don't have to prove it to myself by forcing it on others. I'm not validated by convincing you there is a God, and I don't think I'd be doing you any favors to attempt to prove it to you. Really, it's a recognition of the fact that a lot of 'religious' people engage in coercive tactics when discussing this issue - even with each other. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
That's because you're without God and therefor not able to comprehend them. ;) |
See, I thought you were taking the piss, but here’s my response to lira which im really saying to you now.
Well, its just such a retarded argument.
Yes, there is a (pointless and pedantic) argument that could be made that there is no objective morality without god. the fact that this is irrelevant* though is completely lost on most. Then there’s the fact that its impossible to reconcile the different laws of the 3 desert gods, so any claim that morality comes from god is completely moot, as there is no definitive moral framework which can be referenced. This therefore entails human beings having to make up their own minds about what is acceptable “moral” behaviour and what isn’t. this is rationality, not god’s word.
And of course, there’s the fact that human beings existed for thousands of years before the desert god deemed it necessary to dabble in human affairs, and I would posit that early man still had guidelines that benefitted the group and individual, so early foundations of “moral” behaviour pre-date, say, moses going up sinai with a chisel.
*Objective morality from god is irrelevant because human beings are more than capable of making laws that protect the group or individual, without having to reference external, spiritual forces. There are rational reasons for legislating against murder or rape or theft. Such laws benefit the society and while they might have evolved alongside the beginnings of spiritual belief, I think they could have easily existed separately. Indeed, since “modern” religions pay absolutely no heed to the extinct religion(s) they overran (you know, other than to borrow a few concepts here and there), I would like to see an argument from a theist to explain how early man survived its millennia of moral decay before the “true” word of the lord created objective morality. |
|
|
| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
See, I thought you were taking the piss, but here’s my response to lira which im really saying to you now.
... |
You're absolutely right.
Furthermore, I think it's a fairly telling belief, that without God, there would be no morality. Essentially the person is admitting that without God, there is no reason on his or her part to behave ethically towards other people. Ergo, when you hear such an argument, it's more likely for you to be speaking to someone who has no conscience other than that simulated by a fear of retribution in the afterlife.
Pathological Narcissists will typically invoke God, co-opting Him (Her, It) in their beliefs to suit their purposes. Their self-worth and sense of entitlement will be somehow related to God working through them. If they steal from someone, it will be rationalized that God ordained it, or some other such poppycock. Regardless, people who actually use that argument scare me. |
|
|
| Lews |
I've always been scared by religious people who say that there is no morality without god. Some person in my ethics class last quarter went so far as to say that if god didn't exist he would do whatever he wanted, even going so far as to say he would kill his own mother if it would gain him something, since there would be no hell or heaven.
How the does this person think that they are good? They're doing everything out of a selfish motivation for heaven and a desire to avoid hell. How can they possibly think that they are better than an atheist who is nice, kind, gives to charity, volunteers, etc, etc, for no motivation at all except to help other people.
I'm always afraid that religious people like that are going to have a crisis of faith, grab a gun, and go on a rampage.
While I know that rationally that is probably just my anxiety disorder going haywire, there is some truth in the fact that religious people can be ing scary if they think all morality comes from god. So if they get schizophrenia and 'god' tells them they have to shoot everyone at the store, they'll ing do it. |
|
|
| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Furthermore, I think it's a fairly telling belief, that without God, there would be no morality. Essentially the person is admitting that without God, there is no reason on his or her part to behave ethically towards other people. Ergo, when you hear such an argument, it's more likely for you to be speaking to someone who has no conscience other than that simulated by a fear of retribution in the afterlife. |
I remember a Christian on another forum I used to visit, who absolutely hated atheists. He would create endless and massive debates trying to prove God's existence. Eventually, after months of arguing he explained why he hated atheists so much: we would all, apparently, be murderers and rapists if society's laws didn't punish it. To him, atheists were fundamentally bad people because their good behaviour and actions were only motivated by fear of the law.
Of course, there are countless moments in my life where I could break the law or be a horrible bastard without the law ever knowing or being able to punish me. As an atheist with no belief in objective morality, I act how I do because that's who I am. I realised afterwards his incredible hatred of atheism was all projection. Some part of him knew that the only thing keeping him in check was that giant omnipresent policeman in the sky. All his fears about his darker thoughts were manifested in this massive campaign against atheism. |
|
|
|
|
