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Quick Message then a shameless TA Top 250 plug for a GREAT producer (pg. 3)
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| Mad for Brad |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjStephenWiley
Despite all this, he still supports my label and my music. Still puts me on his VIP guest list plus however many people I want to bring for the shows I decide to go to (Rain was excellent) and is still friendly when he has time to talk. - Most people, especially in Oakey's shoes, wouldn't ever have anything to do with me.
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He has burnt a lot of bridges. I will take your word that he has changed but the fact that he wants to do film music by hiring ghost writers to me represents the same money oriented opportunist that should leave music to those that have talent. Not giving credit to people that help you whether it be orchestrators , composers is a sign of someone that is aware that they are a phoney. Why hide. Why not just assume the role of producer. Hans Zimmer is a great example of someone that acts as a general producer but works with up and coming artists and does give them credit and starts their career. He has pushed at least 10 film composers into A feature film categories. That I respect. People that give. It isn't that Hans Zimmer can't do it but he has done it and he knows it and he realizes that perhaps he is better at being a general producer at this point.
People like him should run labels. People that love music but aren't really that talented but have a flair for marketing should be championing others , not themselves. If I had money, I would be commissioning artists I like without regard of returns because I just want music I like. I recently commissioned one of my favourite EDM producers 1000$ to make a track for me without any sort of direction or hold on the rights. I just value his work that much. and I am definitely not rich and that was about a weeks pay which amounts to about 60 hours. I just love music and since I don't make EDM anymore, I contribute in other ways. I've thought about running a label regardless if it makes money because I want to propel good music regardless of the financial gains.
This scene needs more people that give, not take. And he is a taker. |
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| DigiNut |
How the hell is this "keeping things on topic?" It's a shameless plug, exactly as the title suggests, and has nothing to do with production techniques or equipment. I've also never seen you contribute anything to this area of the forum.
I'm removing your SPAM from the original post and keeping this thread around only as a warning (and for the interesting side discussion). Don't do it again. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
How the hell is this "keeping things on topic?" It's a shameless plug, exactly as the title suggests, and has nothing to do with production techniques or equipment. I've also never seen you contribute anything to this area of the forum.
I'm removing your SPAM from the original post and keeping this thread around only as a warning (and for the interesting side discussion). Don't do it again. |
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| DjStephenWiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
This scene needs more people that give, not take. And he is a taker. |
Not going to argue that. Even his closest of workers have called him a tyrant when it comes to money. Many artists have left Perfecto because of it. Yes, he is greedy. Both with money and "fame" - I'm not sure how the whole ghosting thing works when it comes to film. I can name off his ghost writers for EDM, but no clue for film. Is it common for film?
Paul doesn't hide the ghosting aspect as much as you think either. He openly admits that he hummed the big brother theme to Andy Gray and then Andy made it. I also recall him talking about wanting an in your face type song with ready, steady, go. I've never been in a studio with him but everybody I have ever talked to say he is very hands on. I guess people get pissy that he wants his workers signing NDA's (which he compensates them for) while he takes the credit. Since we are not sitting in his sessions lately, I think it would be unfair to jump to conclusions. People just like to talk $hit about him because apparently it became the cool thing to do, even if you know NOTHING about the guy. (My girlfriend is a perfect example) |
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| Mad for Brad |
for film no. Orchestrators are always credited although I wasn't credited for many things as I wasn't part of the union and I didn't have a green card so that is really just a matter of protecting themselves and doing me a favour at the same time as I was working under the actual orchestrator technically a paid intern. None of the people I worked for would deny the work I did and would give me a reference. Ghost writing doesn't really exist in film. There are rumours such as Danny Elfman but I don't believe it and I think it is generated by disgruntled composes that are jealous. He is quite consistent and his style is quite clear. People said the same of Hans. Hans is not the greatest classical writer and does collaborate with other artists but he never fails to give credit where credit is due. there are just too many people involved in soundtracks to hide behind a guise. The process involves so many people from the orchestrators, to the conductors , to the contractors , directors, producers. If you don't know what you are doing and you are really just a mediator between the ghost writer , it just won't work because the nature of film scoring is very on the spot sometimes. Film scoring is also something you don't just fall into by luck. It is populated by some of the most talented musicians, composers on the planet. You don't just start making scores. It is a demanding job that would only appeal to someone that loves music and what they do as the workload is ridiculous and doesn't pay off until you are 50. People looking for fast money and fast success don't make soundtracks.
Almost every major score i've worked on has had revisions on the spot and a composer that didn't know what he was doing would be figured out extremely quick. You can't fake it in hollywood. It is just too intense and competitive. |
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| Stephen Wiley |
| Well I'm actually glad it is that way. You're basically saying Oakey isn't going to be able to hire others to get him some of the top scoring films. You think swordfish was his peak in film and he'll never get any further? If so, he's stuck with dance and pop. With little amounts of money being generated there, and everybody fighting over it, seems Paul might be DJ'ing for a long time if he wants to continue to live in Hollywood. That's really the only place to get paid right now for EDM and he has no pop music success to speak of at the moment. |
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| Mad for Brad |
Not at all, he can be a producer for film music b(music supervisor) but you don't hide behind ghost writers. You credit them because you aren't trying to secure your credibility as an artist but rather your ability as a producer to finish a soundtrack. There is no reason for a film composer/producer to fake your ability as it will show very quick. If your skill is the ability to decide what works and what doesn't without being a composer, you can make a good living, The point is that you don't have to lie about it because that skill is recognized. With ever film is a music director that sort of acts as a producer. Perhaps that is more what he is geared towards, Again , film music is not simple, there is alot of competition and you have to be really good and very aware of current trends. If he can do that, he can make a living. But he won't be fooling anyone pretending to compose.
My personal opinion is that most making film music are way out of their league and do not understand the link between music and motion film and end up using learned cliches that are insulting to the trained ear and competent movie critic. To be a good film composer , you have to not only have a good understand of music and theatre/Opera from the time of Wagner but also an understanding of current trends and everything in-between which most seem to not possess. I just think that Oakenfold is completely out of his element and surrounded by people that have been spending the last 20 years perfecting the craft he things he can somehow absorb in a matter of years.
I can see him doing advertisement, but feature films, well I just think that is something he just does not have the training and experience to do. |
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| DjStephenWiley |
any idea how he landed such good scores with no experience a while back??
(swordfish, planet of the apes, collateral) |
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| Mad for Brad |
swordfish was in 2001 at the peak of his career working with Christopher young who has worked on countless movies. He probably got the gig from his tidle wave of fame and had to call in a composer once he realized he didn't know what he was doing. I haven't seen the film so I can't comment but I know there were a staggering amount of orchestrators that worked on the film. Odd no ? I just went to IDMB to be sure and there were 7. That is a lot.
planet of the apes was Elfmann
Colaterall was James Newton Howard
Perhaps he made a track for those films but he definitely has no hand in the composition.
I think the trend is quite clear. He had a chance, he tried, and he could not deliver. Hollywood does not tolerate ups. I did just check out his work on IDMB and they are all theme songs for second rate TV. 1 track which can easily be done by anyone with a little help. But scoring is another ball game and if you can't talk the talk and walk the walk, you will have a really hard time.If you are just a mediator to the actual composer, the director is going to wonder why he is talking to you and not the composer and the producer is going to wonder why the hell he is paying a music supervisor. You might get away with it once like it seems he did but reputations are made and broken in a matter of 1 film. You don't really get second chances.
And some people do get work with no experience just from reputation but they all had alot of help at the beginning but showed promise. Trevor Rabin was a member of Yes and a great guitarist. and was cultivated by Zimmer's MediaVentures. Danny Elfman had 2 budget movies under his belt until he did BeatleJuice and then I do believe he was hired for Batman soon after but he was the lead singer of Oingo Boingo which gave him some berth at the beginning. Danny Elfman is really the only exception I can think of. He was very lucky and that is why there are so many rumours regarding his ability.
No doubt Paul can make a living just making single tracks like alot of other successful producers in hollywood but as a composer for film ? That is another matter. Perhaps he is studying composition at this very moment and will do work in the future. I started studying in 2002 and I am now able to do anything classical related but unlike Oakenfold, I did not have to deal with fame and all that comes with fame and I had the time to spend 14 hours a day studying. I was also a rather accomplished musician with 20 years in piano, 13 years in violin , 6 years of drums and 3 years of guitar so I wasn't completely learning from scratch. I doubt Oakenfold has or would even want to put that kind of effort and his current music vocabulary is probably extremely rudimentary.
I think it is important to distinguish a producer for media and a film composer as they are 2 very different things that require different skill sets. You can be an awful film composer but still be quite successful in licensing your music to media. Consider the novelist compared to the columnist. 2 different skill sets. |
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| EddieZilker |
Richie - your writing is freakin' awesome to read. I love reading what you write about both music and the business.
Related to what you're talking about, if someone who had relatively little experience and knowledge about music somehow got noticed by someone in Hollywood who wanted us to score a film, would your advice be to turn it down, bone up on weaknesses and hope for a future call and/or is there a strategy you'd recommend in terms of getting our ducks lined up to make it feasible without wrecking future prospects? |
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| Mad for Brad |
you sometimes only get one chance so yes, accept the job. You take it, you get help. You do everything in your arsenal to finish the job as that is all you are being graded on. People will tolerate someone that might be new , a little over their head but the right attitude and vision to see the entire process out. The worst that could happen is that the director panics, and rejects your score and you don't work as a film composer but in most cases of rejected scores ( has happened to a few big composers ) the problem wasn't talent but rather communication. Either the director could not voice what he wanted and the composer could not extract what the director wants or the composer could not listen and follow instruction. Some directors have no musical vocabulary. They might hate a cue only because of a certain instrument that can be easily taken out but you won't get that specific instruction. The really good film composers have this sort of mind reading jedi trick. In a way, it is similar to Engineers in the same industry. It is assumed you have talent and what really makes you stick out is your ability to just dive in and get the job done. The ability to deal with ridiculous deadlines and constant changes working in a volatile environment keeping your cool. The music part is especially stressful as generally, the picture is locked and you have a fixed deadline and the music part is really the only deadline that will never be extended. If the director gets the feeling you aren't going to finish in time, you will know as you will either be replaced or forced to work with someone more experienced.
Many composers that popped up in the late 80's - early 90's had little experience and lots of help but they also had a vision and lots of talent. There is a lot of on the job training. You are only a film composer once you've made music for film. Making orchestral music that sounds like film music does not make you a film composer. There are a whole bunch of skill sets including probably the biggest one , being able to communicate, that are required on top of the music stuff. Just a little pet peeve of mine when people say they are film composers when they haven't ever put their music to media. |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
swordfish was in 2001 at the peak of his career working with Christopher young who has worked on countless movies. He probably got the gig from his tidle wave of fame and had to call in a composer once he realized he didn't know what he was doing. I haven't seen the film so I can't comment but I know there were a staggering amount of orchestrators that worked on the film. Odd no ? I just went to IDMB to be sure and there were 7. That is a lot.
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This is what he did on that movie.
http://www.discogs.com/Paul-Oakenfo...m/release/38794
And this soundtrack is awesome. |
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