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Quick Message then a shameless TA Top 250 plug for a GREAT producer (pg. 4)
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| Mad for Brad |
yes but if you noticed, the actual scoring was not done by him. He just made tracks and licensed them to be used in the movie. Similar to just plugging a rap song in a movie. That doesn't make you a film composer. It makes you a producer /music supervisor. And I can guarantee the tracks he did make where done with his usual henchmen of ghost writers.
And the soundtrack isn't awesome. It is not cohesive and perhaps you might like some songs but to someone that appreciates the finer things in film , it would be considered the lowest form of film music. A great score has unity, is a part of the film that cannot be detached as it is so perfect together. I doubt this is the case. And I noticed for every track he "did" the name Andy Gray seems to show up. |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
yes but if you noticed, the actual scoring was not done by him. He just made tracks and licensed them to be used in the movie. Similar to just plugging a rap song in a movie. That doesn't make you a film composer. It makes you a producer /music supervisor. And I can guarantee the tracks he did make where done with his usual henchmen of ghost writers.
And the soundtrack isn't awesome. It is not cohesive and perhaps you might like some songs but to someone that appreciates the finer things in film , it would be considered the lowest form of film music. A great score has unity, is a part of the film that cannot be detached as it is so perfect together. I doubt this is the case. And I noticed for every track he "did" the name Andy Gray. |
Whatever dude, its one of my favorites CDs. Maybe you should see the movie first before actually judging the soundtrack. |
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| Mad for Brad |
a good cd doesn't make a good soundtrack. Good music doesn't make a good soundtrack. You obviously know little about the topic so just give it a rest. I am not debating the quality of music but rather his ability as a film composer. If you can't see the difference between someone that scores a unique work for film and someone that makes a collection of songs to force into a movie, then you won't understand the points i'm making.
Don't take my word for it
http://www.soundtrack.net/albums/database/?id=2775
To sum it up, he just made a bunch of songs that did not support the drama in any way and forced them in. Hack work and no surprise, nobody offered him anything of that magnitude since.
I don't even understand why he wants to score for films. It is more work than he wants to commit, it is technically less money than doing a theme song for a syndicated show. He probably makes more off the big brother theme a year than many composers make a film. I think he has no idea what scoring for film even means. I think he just wants to be relevant in Hollywood at any means necessary. He is a fame whore, not an artist. |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| Why does every thread here eventually turn out to be about Oakenfold? |
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| Storyteller |
| Dance music is Oakenfold. No more no less. |
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| EddieZilker |
| And lo. Oakenfold, God's prophet on Earth, did lay the needle on the record and smooth bass-tones arose and anointed his flock with delightful melodies. And they didith hear the angel sing, from betwixt the highest hats, "Calling your name, can't you hear me calling? Calling your name, calling your name." And his flock gave rose, with the greatest anticipation and shouted his glory, flipped open their cell-phones, and did wave to the rhythm. |
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| DJ RANN |
I've got to add my 2cents to what m4b is saying.
You're absolutely right about most of it, but the ghost thing is not actually correct - MANY composers (and I'm not going to get specific for obvious self protection reasons) use sub composers to write cues, even whole sections of cues, and while they may get an IMDB credit, they are not the person on the poster or listed as the composer - it will be additional music production services or score assistant etc, and that's not the same as "score by" or "composer". Those minor credit won't get you a gig unless you've got a ton of them, and even then it will probably only yield a zero budget indie film /which is at least a start but again that itself is not really going to get you paid scoring/composing work).
In fact there is one well known "composer" I have worked on a couple of occasions with who barely writes a thing, has studio musicians often just play with a minimal bit of direction and call it his score. He's won major awards and he is the most tenious description of what I would call a producer.
As for composers giving other (often sub) composers feature film breaks, yes, they will have done so much ghost writing by that point it's virtually the last thing to keep them on board from going somewhere else and getting gigs. I actually think some of it is just to keep the available work out there in the family, essentially for nothing more than stopping the competition.
Quite a few of the composers that you're thinking of in reality broke away, rather than being gifted the chance to score - many of them patched it up later (mutual) but it's accurate to infer they were brought up through the ranks as part of a philanthropic gesture. Yes, some are because talent is spotted but it's really to make sure that talent is in house rather than competition, bidding for the same films.
I really can't say much more about the specifics of this subjects (and I'm not trying to be mysterious and he knows why) but M4B is absolutely right about the talent aspect. You have to be unbelievably talented, very well educated, both academically and in terms of musical awareness, as well as doing a ridiculous amount of dog work to even have the opportunity to get the chance to sub a bed track for a cue that *may* get in to the film. A lot of the guys I work / have worked with did so much work that it so unbeleivably below their talent and ability levels for years just to get a small chance at fixing or conforming a cue for a reedited segment.
And to touch on the other skills part - you have to realize that nearly every composer relies on a team, in some cases an army, of help to "produce" a score, and so much of the battle of being a top flight composer can also rest on things such as how good you are in a meeting, whether you can pitch your idea effectively, whether you think on your feet in terms of musical ideas, whether you can rely on the right team of people around you - it's not just about music, so much is management, and the top guys have it down to a ing artform.
By the way Zimmer got in to by being a composers assistant in London for many years but he got the chance to do that because he was the keyboard player for The Buggles - Video Killed the Radio Star. He's actually self taught (no formal music training) which does go a long way to explaining his model of collaborating with musicians to bring something to the score.
It's funny though, through my work as a score engineer at various studios, one thing that strikes me is how major music stars or "artists" are so far out of their depth when they are on a film project. It's actually staggering how at a loss they can be and the nurturing and producing that needs to go on to get something useful.
Some can play their genre or instrument so well, even be amazing at song writing, but the sheer intellectualisation of score music is way beyond them and by the time the science (conforming, tempos, editing) portion gets involved, they are just floundering.
You have to bear in mind that for a given score or even a mid budget film, there would be obvious orchestral elements but there may well also be electronic, asian, middle eastern, folk, african, (etc), all in the same score, and you have to be able to write for them and make sure they fit and compliment the film in a cohesive manner, which is one of the single most difficult aspects of scoring.
And this is why most EDM producers suck at scoring - it's the combination of all these skills, while trying to do all these different elements or discliplines and being flexible under extreme pressure to produce something creative and working with and "handling" a large number of people (and that can inlcude everything from Assistant engineers to the Executive producer or director of the film itself).
It's so much more complex than writing some soaring chords to a slo- mo battle scene. |
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| DjStephenWiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subtle
Whatever dude, its one of my favorites CDs. Maybe you should see the movie first before actually judging the soundtrack and I can tell you this with 100% certainty. Many of the FX found in it can only be found in his Waldorf Wave if you have any doubt. |
Not taking sides here or anything but Andy Gray wrote all the swordfish tracks.
Question for Mad for Brad....I know somebody who was asked by Paul to create a score for a film they only had a script of. This person was on the other side of the planet. It wasn't a big film, but decent I suppose. Called 'Victim' - Well, he submitted it and it was rejected. First time Paul ever rejected his work. Any thoughts on that? |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjStephenWiley
Not taking sides here or anything but Andy Gray wrote all the swordfish tracks. |
Sure, but his best tracks are with Paul Oakenfold. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I've got to add my 2cents to what m4b is saying.
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Another brilliant read. You guys should collab on a book. This stuff is totally interesting.
To me, at least. |
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| Mad for Brad |
rejected scores still get paid. I"m assuming Oakenfoald didn't pay and that is why you are asking. I think that says alot if that is the case. The fact that he got away with it probably had to do with a dodgy contract and inexperienced composer.
As fas as Rann's mention of additional music, yes it happens often in fact orchestrators are often used past their initial task but I suppose my point is that most of these things occur because of a lack of time, not lack of talent and the lack of credits rarely has anything to do with protecting the original composer's credibility which is not the case with Oakenfoald. It is rare for a working film composer to never actually do anything as the actual climate is just too intense that you can't fake it and if you do , you can't fake if for that long.
I think unlike pop where you need some sort of artist credibility, for films your reputation is based off your ability to finish a film and do it right. I just can't see someone faking it, keeping his magic helper a secret when there are so many people involved and the need to communicate has to be quick and clear. You might as well just say this is my partner, and bring him into the loop as otherwise , you will end up looking very stupid very often. And I suppose my point I made before, why would you want to fake it in the film business. It just makes no sense. There is as much money in TV and you are under less pressure and you can easily get someone to make themes for shows and make a nice living without ever writing a note. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
There is as much money in TV and you are under less pressure and you can easily get someone to make themes for shows and make a nice living without ever writing a note. |
Is TV a good kiddie pool if you want to graduate to film or are the working environments so different that they're mutually exclusive in that respect? |
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