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FAO: Drug Users | MESSAGE: Please boycott foreign drugs or overdose already. Thanks! (pg. 6)
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| sensorium |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
I'd submit having drugs legalized, or decriminalized, would change the drug economy in such a way that the cartels would be obviated. It is the "war on drugs" which has created the economic conditions which cartels thrive under. Without such conditions, the cartels are missing a key ingredient for their industry.
As it is, the United States is the largest market for drugs. Decriminalizing the growth and distribution of Marijuana, alone, would compromise a fairly significant portion of market-share currently held by cartels. I don't agree that one country's unilateral decriminalization is going to have any negative impact, so far as how cartels escalate their use of violence. |
So you actually think a country such as the US can decriminalize a drug and such modification would not have a negative impact on other countries? What do you think would come of it? Not specifically on cartels but on societies and foreign governments.
| quote: | | Yes and no, on this. I think it's wrong-headed to downplay the significance of the War on Drugs, as it relates to the economies of countries the drugs are sourced from. If anything, Napolitano, when she said what she said, was reifying the current economic dynamics. It should also be said that drug cartels have little vested interest in upsetting that status quo. |
You underestimate the intentions of drug cartels, especially in Mexico where there are more groups battling against each other and with the government to increase their power. Surely they are not happy with their current situation seeing some of their strongest leaders captured or killed and resorting to kidnappings and killings of important people in government. They are also making a statement and want to have a bigger influence.
| quote: | | Partly true. Leaving out the "elite" part, this claim, whether you wanted it to be, or not, is directed at me since I am definitely not involved politically but also have no issues with drugs beyond the fact that I am a huge fan of marijuana - and it's been a few years since I've partook. I do, however, pay more attention to this issue than your average bear so I'll attempt to inform this. |
It wasn't intentional. That statement is because I have encountered many in my life that have presented such claims when they were openly apolitical. Although there may be some that would argue that doing nothing is a political statement itself, it becomes almost laughable when they present a behavior that doesn't present an awareness of a big international problem which is in some way connected to them.
| quote: | | You also have to consider that all of the policies of the United States Government are essentially designed to be hard to reverse. This feature, in conjunction with the fact that industries and personal incomes associated with U.S. drug and immigration policy (the privatization of illegal alien detention centers, for instance) retards most people's ability to address a reversal of them. It's very easy to say that no one in a position to care actually cares enough to do anything. In terms of practicality, nothing could be further from the truth; particularly when you consider your rather astute observations about the climate of political discourse in our country. |
Aren't all policies in other countries designed this way as well? I do know of the power lobbyists have. It is detrimental.
It's all about a lack of awareness or interest, not just from users in the US but all over the world--not an interest to act on it necessarily. As said in the other post, it is a complex issue. But users themselves have a responsibility not only because they are part of the problem but many also later become victims of it.
Talking further about the battle against organized crime, because even the Obama administration doesn't want to call it War on Drugs, Felipe Calderon made the mistake of not creating a clear plan to eradicate the cartels--as if it were possible. The Merida Initiative was poor. The corruption of officials and military is also a factor.
Since the beginning of this battle at the end of 2006, 34,000 lives have been lost in Mexico alone. In Michoacan La Familia is becoming a part of society. Some don't want the military there as they see better not to mess with La Familia because many are now in some way connected with them.
If you look at the routes in the map Lira posted, you will see that everything is going north to the US. So as consumers, educated or not, they have a higher responsibility to become aware of the situation. Anyone living in Mexico knows of endless stories about narcs and their spreading all over the country for more power. There are untouchables who are feared and respected in some regions. Random shootings start anywhere. There is no security. That was what Napolitano was referring to; she is content with the current situation in her country because it is better than that of Mexico. That is why she made the statement I quoted; such statement obviously carries a different meaning for different people. For example, the government of Mexico can take it as a message that implies that it is not doing its job but the neighboring country is happy that it isn't their country that has such situation.
More lives will be lost because of this endless battle. Calderon has two more years in the presidency. The way of life of the narcs is becoming each day more attractive to young people. It is not always because of economic hardships, it is also because young impressionable people become attracted to a lifestyle of easy money, power and luxury. It can also be because some people are forced into it, like some mayors. Even flight attendants in Mexico were smuggling drugs to Spain. I don't know their story yet but I'm pretty sure their excuses are going to fly with me.
COR mini-summary: If you use, you're part of the problem, more so if you create a barrier between the bigger problem and yourself. |
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| ivofivo |
| quote: | Originally posted by sensorium
So you actually think a country such as the US can decriminalize a drug and such modification would not have a negative impact on other countries? What do you think would come of it? Not specifically on cartels but on societies and foreign governments. |
Typical American. . |
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| Penalba |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
As the regular posters here probably know, there are very few topics I take seriously but, when I do, I usually bomb the screen with walls of text, sources, and html codes. Also, I'm far from being an intolerant person, having argued for the liberty of all kinds of nutters. In this thread, I want to try a somewhat different approach: because of the consequences involved in this kind of activity, it'd be downright immoral to be tolerant. And I want to make it brief.
It doesn't matter right now if the war on drugs is misguided or wrong. It exists and, as far as we're all concerned, it must either be repelled through legal action or obeyed. If you really need drugs and want to find a moral loophole, make sure you can either manipulate the necessary substances/plants and make your own narcotics, or buy homegrown if you absolutely know no other crimes are being committed. However, if you buy drugs of unknown origin, I'd like to politely ask you to stop it. Otherwise, if you really need drugs, please overdose.
You may live in comfortable communities where your actions have little if any impact, but the drugs may well have come from some other place. And you're very likely responsible in a way or another for drug-related crime in Mexico: do you really think the routes reaching the borders are a coincidence?
As someone who lives in a developing country, I can assure you that we do not have the means to revert this situation. Poverty is tough enough a problem for us to tackle, and it's already a good source of problems and criminality. If you sponsor these criminals through the acquisitions of the goods they sell, you're only making it harder for us to solve this problem. I've had loved ones kidnapped by drug pushers looking for money, and they have become all too powerful due to their profitable activities.
I'm doing all I can to raise awareness where I live because the situation here is not much better than what's going on in Mexico. However, the world is now flatter than ever, and this is probably a hopeless attempt to do something abroad. But, I'm trying, and I beg you: if you want to do drugs, do the right thing - either do it responsibly or just end yourself because no upstanding citizen deserves to pay for your mindless actions :)
CORe version: If you do drugs, please see the traffic routes in the map above. Other people may be dying so you can get high and, if that's the case, I warmly ask you to end yourself before you do any further damage. Oh, and I ing hate you for that :gsmile: |
Dude, you got your totally backwards. Do you think if there was no demand, there would be no deaths? The problem here is poverty. These people need money one way or the other. Either they make their money in drug trade or they make their money some other way (kidnapping, sex trafficking, robbery). I'll admit, I'm one of the people you would like to see "overdose", but I just wanted to say I disagree with your reasoning. The problem is not demand, the problem is poverty. |
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| Serial Killer |
| quote: | Originally posted by sensorium
So you actually think a country such as the US can decriminalize a drug and such modification would not have a negative impact on other countries? What do you think would come of it? Not specifically on cartels but on societies and foreign governments. |
I agree.... If US legalizes all the developing countries like Mexico, Russia, etc.... would go bankrupt
| quote: | Originally posted by ivofivo
Typical American. . |
don't say stupid .... russian junkies support the Chechen skum who get their stuff from Afghanistan...
douche |
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| -FSP- |
| quote: | Originally posted by Penalba
Dude, you got your totally backwards. Do you think if there was no demand, there would be no deaths? The problem here is poverty. These people need money one way or the other. Either they make their money in drug trade or they make their money some other way (kidnapping, sex trafficking, robbery). I'll admit, I'm one of the people you would like to see "overdose", but I just wanted to say I disagree with your reasoning. The problem is not demand, the problem is poverty. |
It's not just Mexico that's involved, they have the USA involved too. The USA is pouring money into the cartels. Drug trafficking is putting cash in the drug lord's pockets and it's helping them buy weapons, which helps them do the other stuff you just wrote down and just exacerbates the problem. |
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| Zyklon_Jay |
| mexicans are the new niggers? |
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| Desiderata |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay
mexicans are the new niggers? |
Didn't get get the memo? |
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| ivofivo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Serial Killer
don't say stupid .... russian junkies support the Chechen skum who get their stuff from Afghanistan...
douche |
Clarification, it's a beautiful thing. |
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| enydo |
ATTN DRUG USERS.
Keep calm, carry on. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by enydo
ATTN DRUG USERS.
Keep calm, carry on. |
your a nicce lady.
*vomits on floor*
(will rebut sensorium, sometime this weekend.) |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by sensorium
So you actually think a country such as the US can decriminalize a drug and such modification would not have a negative impact on other countries? What do you think would come of it? Not specifically on cartels but on societies and foreign governments. |
Look at the impact criminalization has had. U.S. has the highest prison population in the United States consisting largely of non-violent drug offenders serving mandatory sentences. Most if not all gang related violence revolves around criminal activity related to illicit drug-sales.
Portugal, somewhat ironically given the OP's native language ( :p ), decriminalized drugs and saw dramatic improvement, in every category, from teen use to lifetime usage. Users didn't have to hide their use and could get help controlling or eliminating it, altogether.
What the War on Drugs was supposed to cure, for society, it seems to actually cause. I don't think society is any better off for having it when it seems to cost a lot more than it saves.
| quote: | Originally posted by sensorium
You underestimate the intentions of drug cartels, especially in Mexico where there are more groups battling against each other and with the government to increase their power. Surely they are not happy with their current situation seeing some of their strongest leaders captured or killed and resorting to kidnappings and killings of important people in government. They are also making a statement and want to have a bigger influence. |
The reason they're doing that is because the War on Drugs creates a construct for it. The War on Drugs creates the economic conditions to fight for control over. Without WoD, there's no reason to sustain control over territory and market-share. There's no reason for them to exist. The drug-lords might want to be left alone by the government but without the WoD, they may as well be trying to make a profit selling candy-canes, used cars, cat food, et al.
| quote: | Originally posted by sensorium
It's all about a lack of awareness or interest, not just from users in the US but all over the world--not an interest to act on it necessarily. As said in the other post, it is a complex issue. But users themselves have a responsibility not only because they are part of the problem but many also later become victims of it. |
You're right and it's one of the reasons that I don't use marijuana. The level of violence the Mexican Cartels bring to the table is beyond reprehensible. It's despicable and supporting it, however small my contribution would have been, ought to be unthinkable.
| quote: | Originally posted by sensorium
Talking further about the battle against organized crime, because even the Obama administration doesn't want to call it War on Drugs, Felipe Calderon made the mistake of not creating a clear plan to eradicate the cartels--as if it were possible. The Merida Initiative was poor. The corruption of officials and military is also a factor.
Since the beginning of this battle at the end of 2006, 34,000 lives have been lost in Mexico alone. In Michoacan La Familia is becoming a part of society. Some don't want the military there as they see better not to mess with La Familia because many are now in some way connected with them.
If you look at the routes in the map Lira posted, you will see that everything is going north to the US. So as consumers, educated or not, they have a higher responsibility to become aware of the situation. Anyone living in Mexico knows of endless stories about narcs and their spreading all over the country for more power. There are untouchables who are feared and respected in some regions. Random shootings start anywhere. There is no security. That was what Napolitano was referring to; she is content with the current situation in her country because it is better than that of Mexico. That is why she made the statement I quoted; such statement obviously carries a different meaning for different people. For example, the government of Mexico can take it as a message that implies that it is not doing its job but the neighboring country is happy that it isn't their country that has such situation.
More lives will be lost because of this endless battle. Calderon has two more years in the presidency. The way of life of the narcs is becoming each day more attractive to young people. It is not always because of economic hardships, it is also because young impressionable people become attracted to a lifestyle of easy money, power and luxury. It can also be because some people are forced into it, like some mayors. Even flight attendants in Mexico were smuggling drugs to Spain. I don't know their story yet but I'm pretty sure their excuses are going to fly with me. |
Plata o Plomo. Relatively little has been done to make it safer to fight the crime than profitable to join its perpetrators. When one of the officers in a recent raid had his entire family killed just subsequent to it, what's the point? But that's the dynamics WoD creates. End it, and the profitability of being a gangster ends. |
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