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Satan lives in Iraq, lets bomb them!! (pg. 9)
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| Project T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
lets analyze this, you said the israeli government is the main reason for the problems the mid-east is facing... to prove you that the islamic fundametalists are the root of the problem lets look at the period of 1992 to 2000. during that time. the PA was granted complete control socially and secuirty wise over or around a third of the 'occupied' territories ('A' lands) with another third where israel and PA share security control ('B' lands). these actions would lead up to the creation of a palestinian state (which i belive should exsist). one could rationaly argue that during that time the israeli goverment had no involvment in the daily lives of palestians living under the PA's control... however there was always the constant of terrorism. suicide bombers carried out actions in israel proper on all the israeli prime ministers in that time, rabin, peres, netanyahu and barak. therefore i dont see the israeli government as the root of the problem (ones who offered and are willing to live in peace), but rather the islamic fundametalists (who arent willing to live in peace as long is israel exsists). |
I find some of what you said very hard to understand, as there is still the moral question point of whether an ISRAELI state should exist, let alone a palestinian one. I don't condone terrorism in anyway, but some of the things Israel has done to the Palestinians has be nothing less than Genocide :rolleyes: |
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| USMC_Greg |
IMO both sides (Palestine and Isreal) are to blame, but all these terrorist attacks aren't helping the Palestinian cause. I tend to be more sympathetic to the Isreali cause just because I don't like terrorism.
The first thing that everyone needs to do is to accept the fact that Isreal is a state and that it's not going anywhere. That is the biggest hurdle but it has to be done. |
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| biznology |
yeah this discussion, along with the peace process is going no where for ONE REASON:
people refuse to realize religion isnt as important as they want it to be.
people hate on the US, were intolerant/stupid/religious/etc, but at least we allow people of different religions to cohabitate within our borders. i may be non religious, fanatical, jewish, christian or muslim...but it doesnt matter. everyone should have rights to the holy land...not just ONE group. :rolleyes: | |
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| astroboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Project T
I find some of what you said very hard to understand, as there is still the moral question point of whether an ISRAELI state should exist, let alone a palestinian one. I don't condone terrorism in anyway, but some of the things Israel has done to the Palestinians has be nothing less than Genocide :rolleyes: |
Israel has as much of a right to exist as Palestine. Sure they did some things wrong (occupying land that didn't belong to them) - but other countries have done far worse, without anyone questioning their right to exist as a nation. Most Israeli action has been retaliatory (even if a little overzealous), you'd be hard pressed to find a more or less recent Israeli military action that was no provoked by a Paelstinian terrorist attack. |
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| DJ Mikey Mike |
| quote: | Originally posted by Narcotic Mind
you are so full of , they have a police force, weach, as i remind you last year helped the civilians torturing two soldiers, handing guns to terrorist groups and children weach were by the way given to from our very army. besides that they just sit at home and fart all day.
oh yeah and those apaches are bought by millions of dollars, not donated... :mad: |
Which* :D :D |
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| arjoderoon |
| quote: | | fact: saddam is satans son |
...and bush is his brother.... |
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| Cyrus King |
| My good friend works for CBC News here in Canada, and what she tells me about the Palestinians, as reported by Rueters News Agency, is quite sad. The Palestinians are truly the suffering people. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
My good friend works for CBC News here in Canada, and what she tells me about the Palestinians, as reported by Rueters News Agency, is quite sad. The Palestinians are truly the suffering people. |
i dont doubt they are suffering... since they are why dont they do something about it? all they have to do is ban and oust all hamas, islamic jihad, al aqsa martyr brigade... and the few other terrorist organiztions that reside and function within the west bank and gaza. if all the terrorism were to stop and not exsist, palestain would have been an indepent country long ago, and will in the future as soon as that happens.
project T, sorry if what i said was unclear. all i meant to say is there was a period where palestinians had complete autonomus control to govern themselves, without israeli influence but yet terrorism still occured, thus proving that terrorism is the obsticle to peace, not israel.
but anyways back to the original topic. Iraq and Saddam
1) do you guys feel despite of the evidence presented by history and the british dossier that iraq should not suffer a more strict and rigid UN resolution or even an ultimatum?
2) do you think that if/when the UN weapons inspectors go to iraq they will successfully remove all weapons of mass destructions from saddams hands? (if not then whats the point of sending them?)
3) how will we stop saddam's involvement in terror? |
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| cweb |
As I said before: The side who is to blame for the Israel/Pali mess are WE as the "civilized" world, first of all Israel of course, they do the "things", but this Israel-mess is all a product of the inability of the United Nations! UN "founded" practically Israel, but now it doesnt give a whats going there. There are tons of resolution there, but nothing happens. Lets see the actual situation as of now: One side there is Israel. A wealthy country, supported by many of the western front, especially the USA, the nation with the 4th biggest army i guess around the world. A country where the "normal" guy has more or less the same lifestandard as say a Swiss like me. On the other hand there is the Palistenians side. A folk with no sovereign state!!! So they are a bit autonom (but really just a bit), but they are basically citizens of Israle with no real rights. On there "territory" there is enforced settlement from the Israelis, so that in gaza, West bank, etc, there are big points or better regions of jewish settlement which cant be left alone (for obvious reasons). So like the former discussion of a sovereign pali-state, there are Big difference. The sttelemtn basically needs to disappear, because elsewhere the country of Palestina will not be a coherent place, instead it will exist just of points here and there.
now what to do? If you believe a solution between Israel and Palestinians could be reached without involvemtn of say the EU and USA, you are wrong. Palestina cant accept a country as the new homeland which basically is not a country just some regions not even bent with each other. A country if its to exist, has to be coherent, has to be one piece, and not small pieces spreaded everywhere. So on the other hand, Israel just cant tell their settler: "yeah we subvent you to install new settlements, but no its time to leave your place and come back to your homeland. Sharon would be lynched by his own people.
=> So the only reason is, that the UN has to say, here and here are the lines, we seperate the country from here to here and all Palistinians there have to go back to their sid, and the settler have to go back to Israel. But this must involve all bigger countries like USA, Russia, EU, etc. because especially Israel will not be "forcing" the return of their settler, they will do nothing...
The problem is, that Israel is a really force in the world!!!!!!!!! And therefore all together must help to solve this proble, The palistinian side is no problem, they have no weapons, just stones and dynamit, and when the two states are seperated just make a "now-entry" for palistinians to Israel and the suicide will dissappear or jsut happen at the borders. On the other hand Israel is a real force and therefor it will need an international alliance of peace to force the return of the settlers.
But unfortunately I think this mess will never be sold and we will fight in 100 years about the same things there, OR and this the other outcoming: the palestinian folk is "being swept" away from the state of Israel, but thats a genocide and will not really happen.
Sad, really sad:( |
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| JohnSmith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
but anyways back to the original topic. Iraq and Saddam
1) do you guys feel despite of the evidence presented by history and the british dossier that iraq should not suffer a more strict and rigid UN resolution or even an ultimatum?
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Yes, i do. In other words, I believe that weapons inspectors should go back in, that and that all weapons of mass destruction should be destroyed.
saddamn has accepted this without conditions.
http://www.usembassy.it/file2002_09/alia/a2091601.htm
However, this did not prove satisfactory to the United States and Britian. They demanded a stronger resolution, and Bush has repeatedly stated his goal of "regime change".
(Note that this is in direct contravention of the UN charter)
I have read the dossier published by Blair, and in my opinion, it provides no proof that war is justified. It merely restates the estimates of saddamns arsenal. There is also notably absent any proof that iraq is supporting terrorism.
As for history, Iraq has used chemical and biological weapons in the past, and those weapons should be taken away, by agents of the United Nations.
However. Iraq is NOT the only country that should have it's weapons removed. Many nations posess these same weapons, in much greater quantities. in fact many nations, including china, india, pakistan, and israel, also possess nuclear weapons.
Of course, the largest collection of weapons of mass destruction lies in the USA. The US has a devasting power at it's disposal, in all kinds of weapons, including chemical, biological, and nuclear.
Further more, the US (like iraq) has also shown that it will use these weapons for it's own gain. In fact, the US is the only nation to ever have used nuclear weapons on a civilian popuplations.
To put things in perspective for you, where is the security council resolution demanding that washington have it's weapons of mass destruction destroyed? Somehow, i don't think that is going to happen.
My belief is that ALL weapons of mass destruction should be removed, not only from iraq, but from the rest of the world as well.
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
2) do you think that if/when the UN weapons inspectors go to iraq they will successfully remove all weapons of mass destructions from saddams hands? (if not then whats the point of sending them?)
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Well, it is hard to say, i'm not in Iraq. I believe that his capability would be seriously degraded, if not eliminated completely.
There is someone who might have a better idea though, Scott Ritter, former head of the UN weapons inspection team. He has alread declared that 95% of iraqs capability was destroyed by the team prior to 1998. He has gone on record saying that there is no reason to go to war. He has also disclosed that "Inspectors aren't in Iraq today, but not because Saddam kicked them out, but because the United States ordered them out in 1998."
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/13/ritter.cnna/
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
3) how will we stop saddam's involvement in terror? |
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I don't see how saddamn is involved in terror. I have seen many headlines with the words iraq, and terror in them. I have seen many indirect links saying that iraqi officials and alqaeda may have been in the same place at the same time. But, i have seen no direct connection. And you can bet, that if there was, it would be all over the news.
Well, those are my answers to your questions izzy. You may be able to tell, i am a pacifist, and i do not support war with iraq. My opinion is obviously biased just like anybody elses.
I have been watching you post, and i respect you, and your opinions, and i hope you respect mine.
As well, I apologize for my lack of sources. I was navigating the UN site, and there are numerous errors, broken links, redundancies, etc. I can provide better sources with more time.
Here are a few more reasons why i don't think the US should go to war with iraq:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0820-04.htm |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnSmith
Well, those are my answers to your questions izzy. You may be able to tell, i am a pacifist, and i do not support war with iraq. My opinion is obviously biased just like anybody elses.
I have been watching you post, and i respect you, and your opinions, and i hope you respect mine.
As well, I apologize for my lack of sources. I was navigating the UN site, and there are numerous errors, broken links, redundancies, etc. I can provide better sources with more time.
Here are a few more reasons why i don't think the US should go to war with iraq:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0820-04.htm |
hehe, i was going to thank you for answering those questions and that i respect them, even before i read that part... cool deal... btw it may seem like im this obsessed nut when it comes to this issue but honestly i love to talk and debate politics and the middle east is the one im most passoniate and care most about.
anyways ya my opinion differes then yours :p let me get back to you on one thing though, you said:
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don't see how saddamn is involved in terror. I have seen many headlines with the words iraq, and terror in them. I have seen many indirect links saying that iraqi officials and alqaeda may have been in the same place at the same time.
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well i say that theres is proof based on the new reports that have been made public by the israeli itellegence (both IDF and Mossad). after the first siege of arafats compound israel confinscated all paperwork and databases prettaining towards palestinian intellegence, finance and eductaion. papers are coming to light showing how money weapons, training and operatives were being brought in by iran and iraq. to that affect they also had some control over what arafat was supposed to do. this came to light to the american public during the season premiere of 60 minutes. anyways there are documents with arafats own signatures showing he was aware and had authorized these illegal activities.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002...ain523604.shtml
here is the whole transcript:
http://www.aipac.org/60minutes.pdf
now i will take that as fact for i belive that the israeli intellegence community will not 'make up' all of this, nor fabricate those papers (in fact arafat has made a formal request to get those documents back - fat chance).
proof (documents caught) also exsist that the iraqi governments has payed money as rewards to the famalies of suicide bombers.
furthermore a few militant palestinians that have been caught and interigated admit they were trained in al-quida camps inside iraq. and saying that iraqi officials may be aware of this, in my opinion means that it is directly responsible of saddam, as he and his regime are one in the same. it is highly unlikely that saddam is not aware of what his 'officials' are doing |
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| topside |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vanilla
I dont understand why most americans dont see that this whole war mess got started right as Bush's approval rating was plumeting again. Coincidence? Maybe but, then Iraq granted full access of facilities to UN weapons inspectors....yet bush still wants to attack. |
I personally don't like him but that's just me. I do think it's funny how he is talking about war and his re-election is coming up. War presidents are hard to oust. I also hear gore is reseeking nomination... get ready for voting circus 2004 :sadgreen:
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