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Vegas turns up nose at superstar DJs (pg. 3)
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Woony
Wasn't pumping euro trance the most popular dance music of the late 90s though? It's not like he got famous (although he might have at some point, given the sample in Traffic) for playing ing detroit techno, he played that made it to the top of the mainstream charts on several occasions. At least in germany almost everyone outside the trance scene considered these guys horrible sellouts that betrayed the original spirit of techno/rave.
Regardless, he played the ing Olympics in 2004, if that's not selling out then I don't know what is. And that was years before the rise of EDM. |
So, unless you play detroit techno, you're a sell out?
I'm certainly no Tiesto defender, I probably saw him twice in the 90's and one of those was from stumbling in to the wrong tent, so it's not like I was a fan, but at at least in the part of his career where he made his name (maybe 94 to 99?), he wasn't playing top40 commercial crap - he was playing tracks that you'd be likely to hear from other respected DJ's in that genre (such as sasha, oakenfold, westbam, Way out west, etc) and nothing about it was mainstream in the true sense. You didn't hear pumping trance on radio except late night or the essential selection.
People now hear "Tiesto" it rightly is accompanied with a cringe but there was certainly a point when he was respected for his genre and playing decent music.
As I said before, in the early to mid 2000's he made a definite conscious decision to cash in, hired ghost producers, and moved away from the sound that made him for commercial reasons and started churning out that chart friendly stuff that you allude to. It's one of the best examples in dance music of a simple sell out. The EDM thing is just an extension of him selling out.
Same like SHM in their original form. It was a bunch of DJ's playing house and tech house. Not really underground as such but you can see the point when the three big guys in that collective suddenly went ", there's a fortune to be made here" and started making tracks like Don't you Worry child. It was a long way from the comparatively minimal and thoughtfully produced tracks that Steve Angello for instance had been putting out his entire career up to this point.
| quote: | Originally posted by Sys-J
You're talking bull, as ever, IGK. There are countless DJs, musicians and people of all creative paths who've managed to maintain what originally made them great for decades without going to . Their style might change with the times, but that doesn't automatically equate to becoming more calculatingly accessible.
There's nothing more annoying than a DJ or producer or anyone who's creative output you used to revere and rely upon blatantly selling themselves down the river and descending into . Some people just lose their touch and that's understandable because everyone is human, but when someone capable of greatness willingly waters themselves down to make more cash (when they weren't exactly broke to begin with) you have lost a source of musical joy for no better reason than greed.
Granted, none of the DJs being discussed in this thread were any good to begin with and nor were they well-respected, but that's Woony's argument and nothing to do with yours.
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Agree with this apart from the respected part; You weren't clubbing or buying dance music then so it's somewhat impossible to know, but Tiesto, his later sellout notwithstanding, was as respected at one point as any other big name in the dance music. It's all fine to diss him now due to what he's become but there certainly was a period (and not a short one) that was a good DJ, playing good tracks and was playing alongside other revered names, and that was the reason he became such a big draw in the late 90's, and well before Ferry or Armin could make a real mark. Even if someone is not a fan of that music, there was a difference between 90's trance and the commercial e that followed, again purely borne of financial opportunity.
The DJ's in this thread aren't anyone to pedestal, but the thread is about vegas sell outs and the examples are on point, so it's a little bit irrelevant to compared detroit techno to top 40 edm remixes. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| Au contraire. I remember well the era when you could walk into a Tesco and find trance mix compilations side-by-side with Now That's What I Call Music 45. There were two Tiesto tracks on the first mix CD I ever bought when I was 13. He was a figurehead of trance at its most commercial. The notion that he was as respected as the likes of Jeff Mills, Andrew Weatherall or Laurent Garnier is risible. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Dj's sell out because they can. You realize that Guetta was Dj'ing for 20 years before he made a conscious decision to take advantage of a scene that was ripe. Same like Tiesto - you really think he loved EDM so much it made him abandon the race sound he was so famous for? Same with SHM. |
As Woony mentioned, it's a bigger picture. Many producers got tired of the sound they were doing and just moved on - whether to something more "commercial" or to different styles altogether. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Au contraire. I remember well the era when you could walk into a Tesco and find trance mix compilations side-by-side with Now That's What I Call Music 45. |
So lets say we take the anecdote as factual, you're confirming the point, NTWICM 45 was released in......wait for it... mid 2000 - and as I said was the point that Tiesto had sold out. In fact by 1999, the scene was dying, all the weekly trance clubs were closing apart from a few hangons up north and MoS and by 2001 it was all but dead.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
There were two Tiesto tracks on the first mix CD I ever bought when I was 13. He was a figurehead of trance at its most commercial. The notion that he was as respected as the likes of Jeff Mills, Andrew Weatherall or Laurent Garnier is risible. |
He became the figurehead of commercial dance music, but for the "golden age" of trance he was well liked and I would go as far as to say respected. It's a little silly to try to compare him to Mills or Laurent garnier but I think you know that.
I know it's cool to bash that ilk now, but it's a little rich given that he was playing alongside Sasha, BT et al in their prime.
Again, I really have no dog in the race of defending him but given that you were 13 in what, 2000? 2001? and never saw or hear Tiesto in a club, you're really talking about a time that you have no personal reference for. In fact, go get some old copies of Mixmag or flyers for events of the time and you'll see that tiesto wasn't the commercial vehicle he later became. |
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| Woony |
The point I was making is that even in it's "golden age", Tiesto was playing stuff that was pretty damn commercial in the grand scheme of things (ie. no detroit techno). A lot of people back then thought stuff like the Magik Muzik mixes was the most commercial, sell-out dance music ever.
If you look at for example Laidback Luke, who went from a fairly underground techno producer to EDM, his progression is much less natural than Tiesto's. At least in his trance phase I don't know if he ever made a conscious decision to change his sound he just naturally progressed that way as he got bigger. Ask anyone who isn't a trance fan if there's a big difference in cheesy-ness between mid/late 90s and early 2000s euro-trance and they'll probably shrug. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
He became the figurehead of commercial dance music, but for the "golden age" of trance he was well liked and I would go as far as to say respected. It's a little silly to try to compare him to Mills or Laurent garnier but I think you know that. |
Well, you did say:
| quote: | | Tiesto, his later sellout notwithstanding, was as respected at one point as any other big name in the dance music. |
As far as I'm aware, Tiesto wasn't doing anything radically different in 1998-1999 to what he was doing in 2000-2002. Certainly all his tracklists, mix CDs and live sets look like exactly the same kind of commercial supermarket trance right through that spell.
From everything I've read, heard and listened to from that era, my impression is firmly that trance fans were convinced they were the centre of clubbing cool in that era, but every other scene was face-palming hard. An enduring affliction of trance fans, it seems. |
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You're talking bull, as ever, IGK. There are countless DJs, musicians and people of all creative paths who've managed to maintain what originally made them great for decades without going to . Their style might change with the times, but that doesn't automatically equate to becoming more calculatingly accessible.
There's nothing more annoying than a DJ or producer or anyone who's creative output you used to revere and rely upon blatantly selling themselves down the river and descending into . Some people just lose their touch and that's understandable because everyone is human, but when someone capable of greatness willingly waters themselves down to make more cash (when they weren't exactly broke to begin with) you have lost a source of musical joy for no better reason than greed.
Granted, none of the DJs being discussed in this thread were any good to begin with and nor were they well-respected, but that's Woony's argument and nothing to do with yours. |
I spend my time enjoying the music I like instead of bitterly complaining that someone sold out. I don't use music to enhance my status or identity. It's the highest form of ignorance as a spectator to presume your opinion or taste has any significance outside of yourself. You just come off as an arrogant self important ass. |
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| MSZ |
| Im here to argue about Tiesto |
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by MSZ
Im here to argue about Tiesto |
I don't even know why I'm defending him. |
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| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jon_Snow
I spend my time enjoying the music I like instead of bitterly complaining that someone sold out. I don't use music to enhance my status or identity. It's the highest form of ignorance as a spectator to presume your opinion or taste has any significance outside of yourself. You just come off as an arrogant self important ass. |
Have to agree.
Attachment to an artist will end up pissing you off in the future, unless they just die before what you liked about them changes, or your tastes change.
I used to get all militant about EDM and other music and throw out the sell-out bombs and all that crap, but I grew up and realized that there are about a billion different artists out there and if I don't like the direction of an artist I previously enjoyed, no biggie, I find new stuff to enjoy.
And while I frequently find your posts amusing, System-J, you come across as militant about music.
sounds different to different people. All musicians that have audiences have a certain amount of talent, what they choose to do with that talent is up to them and them alone, and doesn't make the music I once enjoyed bad.
The notion that an artist that influenced you went on to become mega rich and apply their talents elsewhere is an affront to music and their potential is petty. Maybe their true talent was working with other people, organizing projects, seeing talent in others, spotting trends or in rare cases they just felt like doing Jesus poses for pictures.
Chances are fans of music don't personally know the ambitions, desires or the hidden talents of the artists they love.
Also, priorities change. Devoting your entire life to pleasing an existing fan base will take an enormous toll, and for DJs that you consider "wealthy" that went on to an easier path, well you probably have no idea what it's like to devote a huge part of your life to pleasing small groups of people in dozens of countries. They have to travel, please people, travel, worry about their girlfriends getting jealous and banging stock brokers, travel, and all of a sudden that perceived wealth that we thought they had doesn't seem as significant because they've ed themselves in all manner of ways. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
I used to get all militant about EDM and other music and throw out the sell-out bombs and all that crap, but I grew up and realized that there are about a billion different artists out there and if I don't like the direction of an artist I previously enjoyed, no biggie, I find new stuff to enjoy. |
It's so simple to do, isn't it? Oh wait...I guess one has to grow up, first.
| quote: | | The notion that an artist that influenced you went on to become mega rich and apply their talents elsewhere is an affront to music and their potential is petty. |
Thank you. That's the most fitting word that describes it. |
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| Alex |
| I don't know if it's simple, actually. I still love music, and am always on the lookout for good stuff, but I just don't get bothered by what I used to get bothered by. |
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