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Matrix: Reloaded (PLEASE DO NOT OPEN UNLESS U SAW THE MOVIE) (pg. 6)
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| Alccode |
Great thread! Some very very very good discussion and theories being presented here, esp. the machine-Neo and Matrix-within-Matrix ones.
I have to say, that M2 did not feel like a movie. It felt like half a movie. M1 was very good in avoiding this effect - it ended very nicely - hell, it might have even ended the series, and left the "saving of humanity" to the viewers' imagination. (of course, that would be no fun, and there would be no $$$ in that ;) ) Another thing is that M1 did not have too many unresolved threads. Actually just one major one: the issue of Neo saving humanity. In M2 there are soooo many unresolved questions, as we can see in this huge-ass thread. At least IMO. That's what makes it seem like half a movie. After M1, my mind was blown away, and I was satisfied. Here, my mind was blown away, but I left feeling cheapened. "Now I really have to wait for the last one, just to resolve even ONE question raised by this one!" I mean, not even Lord of the Rings is that bad. At least with LOTR, everyone knows that Frodo will eventually destroy the Ring and Sauron will fall. (though it would be cool if it didn't happen that way)
I initially rejected the idea that Neo was machine, or half-machine, but thinking more about it makes me wonder. What really hits me is when the French guy (how come No One remembers his name in the movie??? I know it starts with "M"...loL!), after Neo kills his minions, says, "I survived your predecessors and I'll survive you!" (paraphrasing) This strikes me as saying, "predecessors" as in "earlier iterations" i.e. earlier copies, supporting the Neo-is-a-program/machine theory. Not to mention all the other excellent points/evidence brought up by others in this thread.
Then again, having Neo not-human would be a little cheap. I thought the entire point of the Matrix film(s) was that we must find purpose in ourselves, etc., and not in machines and scientific advancement? And now, all of a sudden, there is the new message that Yes, machines are bad, but there is always a little good out of something evil? Actually now that I've articulated that it wouldn't be too bad...kind of an ironic message...mmmm I still think that's stretching it. They should stick to the original moral IMHO.
Also, let's not forget that this is Hollywood, people, Wachowski (sp?) brothers or no! Pretend that you've just seen M1 and M2 for the first time, each, and have not gone to the trouble of devising crazy theories about the story. What impressions will you have? In Star Wars terminology, M1/M2 will seem like ye olde Evil Empire (the machines/matrix) set out to rule the galaxy (or humanity), whereas on the other hand you have ye olde underdog "chosen one" Luke Skywalker (Neo) who can wield the Force (can change the Matrix) and with his skills he defeats the aforementioned Evil Empire (destroys the Matrix).
It's definitely intriguing and very intellectually stimulating to consider the "wacko" theories, but right now I am sitting on the fence, and just believe that things are not as messed up as we think they may be (they usually never are), and that in the 3rd movie there will be some sort of weird plot twist, sure, but nothing too extravagant, and *whammo* you got your Return of the Jedi happy ending complete with dancing Ewoks. :crazy: |
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| DJ El Kay Dee |
can u people stop using the term "machine"????neo would be an application/ program...NOT A MACHINE
CORRECT TERMS PLEASE:whip: |
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| Alccode |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee
can u people stop using the term "machine"????neo would be an application/ program...NOT A MACHINE
CORRECT TERMS PLEASE:whip: |
No, if there is only 1 Matrix, then Neo must be a machine. How else can he affect the real world? Unless we're getting into "magic" here.
Integrating the Machine-Neo and Double-Matrix ideas together would be going way way too far imo. Only in that way could Neo be a program. He would be a program in both the first and second Matrices, but wouldn't exist in the real world.
EDIT:
One serious question that I'd like to raise in regards to Smith. It seems as if something has happened to him at the end of the second movie (or at the beginning of the third), because if you see the Revolutions trailer, he also has super powers like Neo. I.e. super strength and he can fly real fast.
Saying, "yeah he was a previous Chosen One" does not make sense to me because if he was, why didn't he just use his real power in the first two movies??? No, he seems to me to be a bona fide, "Agent", a regular program in the Matrix that has gone wacked. But then I really want to know (a) how can he exist in the real world, and (b) how does he suddenly get super powers in Revolutions??? :eyespop:
It goes without saying, that I really really want to see Revolutions now.
EDIT2:
Supporting the Matrix-within-Matrix theory, I'd really like to know, how the hell does the Matrix exactly affect you in the real world?
In M1, Morpheus just said, "the mind makes it real." That doesn't cut it. There is no way the brain can "choose" to create 20 bullet holes in your body. Even if it could, nothing could be "real enough" to make it do so.
Proof: when we dream, we are as good as in another world, literally. The brain makes a world for itself, and you seem as if you perceive reality. When you dream you act as if you would in real life. Hence it is as good as real to you. If it wasn't, you wouldn't act that way. Plus that would defeat the entire purpose of dreams, to throw away piled-up repressions etc. that accumulate during "waking" hours. So, if you can't die as a result of your dreams, how can you die as a result of the Matrix?
I also thought that all the Matrix did was provide sensory stimulus to you. How can it change your body?? That's like saying the monitor you are looking at right now somehow has the capability to break your arm.
What would resolve this is if the "real world" in M1/M2 was really another Matrix.
And another thing!!! When Neo meets the oracle in M2, she comments on how he can't sleep. How can the Oracle know that Neo can't sleep? He sleeps in the real world!
Unless the real world is just another Matrix!! Dum-dum-dummmm...
EDIT3: Oh and can someone please explain the sole-survivor thing to me, I didn't understand that part of the movie. Also if it has connections to the guy with the knife in the real world who tries to kill Neo, and if that's the same guy that is shown at the end of M2. Thanks! |
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| mot10n |
i dreamt this serial killer with body parts in his closet chased me down and stabbed me. then i said to myself, "wait, i'm in the matrix!" and he made me a jam sandwich, and we went fishing, and i caught a fish, and we ate it.
about the sole survivor, it was the guy that smith overwrote, and then answered the call in the start of the movie, to go back to zion. and the reason he survived obviously was that the machines know he's on their side. the neat thing about the scene where it's as though he was going to kill neo with the knife, but cut just cut his own hand and shoke neo's, is that maybe the blood contains the smith virus, and transferred it into neo. how else would smith know exactly where neo was in the backdoor part of the movie? another unknown, haha :D |
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| DJ El Kay Dee |
^^^^^^^^ken ..u need some rest.....
first off agent smith is not working with the rest of the matrix but is an independent program that is free and after Neo for his own good. the guy he overwrote survived not cos teh AI knew that he was down there but maybe coincidence.
he was about to stab neo in the back until neo hear him and tunred around.
see the reason why he cut his hands was to feel pain cos as a program he doesnt have senses...so it was to basicallyt show the reality he was dealing with |
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| SgtFoo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arsalan
wow really smart apporach and as far as then zion thing goes, i totally agree with you and that is what i got out of it.
but with neo still being in the matrix even in the "real world" , i dont think they are taking that apporach because when they got out, he was like , something is different , i can feel them. so i dont know , it prolly has something to do with agent smith as we can see in the trailer also. |
I agree with what you quoted from as well. And now that you mention "something is different , i can feel them", remember back to the last lines Neo made at the end of Matrix 1, "I know you're out there, I can feel you now. I'm going to hang up this phone, and I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see....."
SO yea!! it proves that even in their illusionary "real world" outside the broken Nuebuchadnezzar, he has powers that are simply more limited, in order to simulate "reality".
I also think aside that, Neo dropped into a coma b/c SMith implanted a failsafe or the Architect imlanted a failsafe into Neo, so that even outside the matrix in this "real world", Neo has limited ability, again coming back to what I said about simulating "reality".
I read this forum and think.... OMFG this trilogy of films is gonna be so ING DEEP!!!!!!! ..... "whoa!" I've decided that this summer I'm gonna pickup a few books that the Wachkowski Brothers made the cast read, such as "Simulacra Simulation" and others.I'm tired, I'll write more later. |
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| mot10n |
you sure bout that liam? maybe the machines let him survive becuase as far as they know, the the real world agent smith is still on their side. coincidence? that would be one helluva coincidence then :p
and about the cutting thing, you may be right, but i like my idea better.
homo. :thepirate |
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| Resnick |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
Then why don't you seriously tell us one of your brilliant ideas?
The signs seem to be pointing to the fact that neo is a machine. Come on... dozens of "he's only human" comments, as well as Morpheus' "he fights for us" statement. Either they're going to develop the story in this fashion, or they're being really clever and pulling an oracle stunt, getting us to think that he is a machine, only to then trick us.
Time will tell...
Personally I think it would be really awesome if there was not matrix in a matrix, and neo is not a machine... that would make for good theatre :D |
actually i did tell my theory earlier in the thread, and if someone has read/seen dune/akira, they will completely understand what im saying... but anywho i ask again, if neo is a machine, he could kill all the humans who resisted, no movie then .... |
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| DJLocoMoco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Resnick
actually i did tell my theory earlier in the thread, and if someone has read/seen dune/akira, they will completely understand what im saying... but anywho i ask again, if neo is a machine, he could kill all the humans who resisted, no movie then .... |
True, but Neo doesn't realize that he is a machine, he believes he is human. In his past 5 lifetimes he has always chosen to repopulate zion, so he has never come to the realization of his true nature. This time is different he chose Trintiy over zion, and along with the fact that agent smith is in the real world, I think Neo will learn of his true nature, but as I said before he won't betray humanity because he has learned to love. |
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| Resnick |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJLocoMoco
True, but Neo doesn't realize that he is a machine, he believes he is human. In his past 5 lifetimes he has always chosen to repopulate zion, so he has never come to the realization of his true nature. This time is different he chose Trintiy over zion, and along with the fact that agent smith is in the real world, I think Neo will learn of his true nature, but as I said before he won't betray humanity because he has learned to love. |
Thats the point im trying to make, that 'neo doesnt realize that hes a machine' if indeed he is a machine, y wouldnt the architect just make him aware that he's an enemy and use him more efficiently...
and i also dont think it was neo the past 5 lifetimes, but 5 copmletely different humans who arent quite as strong as neo... but true on the trinity part. |
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| marcus82 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Resnick
y wouldnt the architect just make him aware that he's an enemy and use him more efficiently...
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how so? use him to kill the human race? |
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| Pyromancer224 |
| he just did didn't he? he made Neo choose Trinity over saving teh entire race |
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