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Girls' suicide pact shocks France (pg. 5)
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| dance2dabeat |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cosmic Fur
I have absolutely no sympathy for people that commit suicide.
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woHH!! that's a bit harsh!!!!
I can honestly say my heart goes out to ppl that kill themselves...it's truly ing sad :(
for someone to feel that depressed and unhappy to just want to end it all....trying to understand what they felt scares the crap out of me :nervous: |
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| Cosmic Fur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
I look at the daily life I'm living, and I hate it. I am stuck to the same fcuking routines every single day. Everything is on a deadline, on a tight schedule, I rarely have room to just STOP and to think freely, to actually LIVE. People living a modern life seem to take living itself for granted. Now of course, for most of them, it is not their fault, they are a product of society, but for some, it is. For some, it is because they give in to their instinctive pleasures, and their animalistic urges which leads their lives to be like this.
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Aren't you taking your life for granted? By hating your life, where by world standards it's pretty damn good?
Furthermore, you're living in a free world. You don't like your life? You have the power to change it, all you need is the will to change it. And if you don't have the will, then it's not so bad in the first place.
The last two sentences I didn't understand at all. What is the 'it' that you're referring to? |
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| zoogla |
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!! I just poured my heart into a response for ONE ING HOUR and when I "submitted" I was logged off and I lost everything...
*hits head on wall for about one hour*
, I can't spend more of my evening on this now, but I have to respond to Peter, Dark, Theresa, Jems, Moral, and Cosmic.....
SHIIIIIIIIIIIIT I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOO PISSSSSSSED RIGHT NOW!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :whip: :whip: :whip:
(please forgive me for this lame post; I will certainly have value-added later on today or tomorrow! ;) :D |
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| loca |
All i can say is wow. Some of you are judging those girls pretty damn harshly. Someone that was once close to me comitted suicide (hung himself), and while i don't think evasion is the best way to deal with your problems, i can also accept the fact that some people just can't get out of the frame of mind where death is the only solution they see.
I've seen family fight for their life while being terminally ill but that doesn't make me think those girls are "twats" or anything else. I just don't understand how some of you could say those things. If they could find no other solution to their problems or were depressed to that extent, it's a sad thing, but ultimately it was their decision. Yes, life is a gift we should all appreciate as it never lasts long enough (in my eyes anyways) but the keyword here is gift. Which means you can choose to do as you wish with that gift you've been given, and that includes taking it away.
It's sad for the families and friends they left behind, but maybe it wasn't those girls' fault. Maybe some counselling would have helped, or anti-depressants, who knows? And to the people who think intense depression is not an excuse, i would love to see you in their shoes at 14 years old, being tormented to the point where life is not worth living. Once you've gone through intense depression and gotten out of it, then give your opinion. Until then you just really don't know. |
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| Dark_Archonis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
To the folks talking about the value of human life....... please tell me why the lives of these two girls are so valuable to you. Seriously, who are you to judge whether or not their lives had enough value to compel these girls to carry on with them despite their (clear) desire to end them? They are the ones living their lives, they are in fact THEIR LIVES, not your lives, not my lives, not their families lives. The liver owns the life that they live.... if they wish to end it then it is their call.
Personally, I wish more people had the courage to kill themselves. We really need to thin the herd in order to strenghthen the future of all man. To quote Nietzsche.... "I love those that seek to overcome themselves and by doing so go under because they hasten the arrival of the superman." (thus spoke zarathustra part II) |
Who says they were thinking clearly? Have you ever been in deep depression or been suicidal? Do you even know how it works? Do you understand how deeply it affects your thinking.
Your mind becomes muddied, filled with emotion, and logic and reason are thrown out the window.
When you're in a situation like those two girls, getting outside help is of utmost importance, but it looks like they were too distraught to get help, and nobody close to them noticed anything wrong.
It was thier life, which was largely controlled by society and the media, as I'm guessing they had a lack of parenting, or just simply bad parenting, otherwise they wouldn't have been in this situation. |
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| Nightscape |
| quote: | Originally posted by dEsidEL
too bad .. i think Goth fasion is hot
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:wtf: |
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| Dark_Archonis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cosmic Fur
Aren't you taking your life for granted? By hating your life, where by world standards it's pretty damn good?
Furthermore, you're living in a free world. You don't like your life? You have the power to change it, all you need is the will to change it. And if you don't have the will, then it's not so bad in the first place.
The last two sentences I didn't understand at all. What is the 'it' that you're referring to? |
Believe me, modern North American life *is not* as great as you think is. Truthfully, it's no better than living in most European countries, even in former USSR states.
Am I taking my life for granted? Hardly ... I very much value life *itself*, and I envy the simple life. This is what I was trying to get across. I envy those who have the freedom to think, to just *live*. Sure, if you really want to, you can do that here, but you are still restricted, and this lifestyle here is not suited towards that "free" and easy going style of living. |
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| EvilTree |
Well, certainly... very interesting comments.
Suicide is a selfish act. How much more selfish can you be leaving all your loved ones and those who does give a damn about you in such pain and hurt?
I suppose once you're dead and you don't have to worry about worldly troubles, it's easier to go kill yourself. But the after effects of your decision will perhaps devastate others. It certainly did to me when someone close to me choose not to live.
Depression is a horrible thing. It feels like fragments of your mind and heart is being shattered being consumed by your darkest thoughts. Whatever the reason for their depression is, they need love and care. It may be hugs and kisses, or a swift kick to the head, but they need to know that people still do give a damn about them. Because rarely will anyone get out of depression on their own strength.
These 2 girls... well, we do not know their life story; merely what we've read. But I wonder, if anyone knew what they were thinking; more importantly, anyone truly cared. At age 14, and what did we know when we were 14? They made the ultimate mistake, one mistake that they do not have the chance to undo.
We all make mistakes. Some learn from their mistakes. Some don't. These girls will never have the chance. |
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| arek |
SUICIDE CLUB.
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| chanoa |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Well, certainly... very interesting comments.
Suicide is a selfish act. How much more selfish can you be leaving all your loved ones and those who does give a damn about you in such pain and hurt?
I suppose once you're dead and you don't have to worry about worldly troubles, it's easier to go kill yourself. But the after effects of your decision will perhaps devastate others. It certainly did to me when someone close to me choose not to live.
Depression is a horrible thing. It feels like fragments of your mind and heart is being shattered being consumed by your darkest thoughts. Whatever the reason for their depression is, they need love and care. It may be hugs and kisses, or a swift kick to the head, but they need to know that people still do give a damn about them. Because rarely will anyone get out of depression on their own strength.
These 2 girls... well, we do not know their life story; merely what we've read. But I wonder, if anyone knew what they were thinking; more importantly, anyone truly cared. At age 14, and what did we know when we were 14? They made the ultimate mistake, one mistake that they do not have the chance to undo.
We all make mistakes. Some learn from their mistakes. Some don't. These girls will never have the chance. |
+1 |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
Who says they were thinking clearly? Have you ever been in deep depression or been suicidal? Do you even know how it works? Do you understand how deeply it affects your thinking.
Your mind becomes muddied, filled with emotion, and logic and reason are thrown out the window.
When you're in a situation like those two girls, getting outside help is of utmost importance, but it looks like they were too distraught to get help, and nobody close to them noticed anything wrong.
It was thier life, which was largely controlled by society and the media, as I'm guessing they had a lack of parenting, or just simply bad parenting, otherwise they wouldn't have been in this situation. |
Alright, I'm going to get personal for a while. Yes I have suffered depression and yes I have considered suicide. When I was 21 I fell into a deep depression and suffered a complete break down. I was diagnosed as clinically depressed, I refused drugs (I know what your thinking but yes I actually refused drugs), and ended up opting out of therapy because I just couldn't be bothered with it (symptom of the depression). I seriously considered suicide on several occasions but never actually attempted it. Why? I never made an attempt because I always came to the conclusion that the potential of happiness and a satisfying life outweighed the torment in which I was living at that moment. Essentially, I valued my life enough that I decided ending my life was too high a price to pay in order to escape my depression.
That was my call to make, I chose to sweat it out and fight through my depression because I had hope and believed my potential life was worth the effort. Had I not felt as I did I may have killed myself, who knows. The key here is that it was my choice. It wasn't your choice, it wasn't my families choice, it wasn't the churchs choice, it wasn't societies choice..... IT WAS MINE, and mine alone, only I could make the judgement of whether or not my life was worth living.
In my mind, these girls deserve the right to make that choice and they did. Now whether or not you agree with that choice doesn't matter one bit, it was their choice to make and they made it. IF they trully believed that their life was not worth enduring the pain and torment that they were living in then they made the only logical and reasonable choice. I commend them for it! They chose death, I chose life.... what does that say about us, who knows? Maybe their pain was worse then mine, maybe I'm a stronger person, maybe they couldn't see that their depression wouldn't last forever.... it really doesn't matter. As far as I'm concerned they chose to end their suffering and their choice should be respected. Just because you or I would not make the same choice doesn't mean we can discount theirs as being misguided or wrong. |
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| zoogla |
*deep breath* here goes this internet hero/keyboard warrior :p:
| quote: | Originally posted by djeso
Seriously though not everyone is religious or spiritual or into god whoever, you have to consider that, and most definately everyone has different beleifs |
That's exactly why I said "God or WHOEVER"...I actually meant that to include "WHATEVER" because according to my logic, even someone who believes in science and nature would think that ending your life prematurely is wrong...let nature run its course, just as it does in the animal kingdom! If a bigger animal wants to kill an animal struggling to survive, that's life! You don't see small, weak animals on the bottom of the food chain committing suicide! Sorry, off on a tangent here, but I think it's a universal belief and a human nature to want to live. (unless you belong to one of those suicidal cults...but even then, there was a spiritual belief that guided their actions).
Theresa, I've respected you TONS even before you shared such an intensely personal part of your life. Not only have you gained respect in my eyes for being able to get through that stage of your life, but also to have the courage to share it with us. I'm really sorry to hear that you had to go through that, and even have trouble imagining it, because you are such a lively and fun-loving person! That's the point...there are certain universal principles in life, like the power of love and the power of laughter and happiness. These positive things are universal, and even in the worst moments in history and life, there is always hope, which can't be taken away by anyone other than the person in question. Ultimately, the responsibility of suicide is on the shoulders of the person who did it. Yes, social factors may be related, but that's not the trigger.
That being said, I feel tremendous sadness that those two girls didn't have someone to guide them or even FORCE them to see the goodness in life that Moral Hazard saw...dude, I'm so happy you made the right decision......:( However, they made that final decision, and it's their DECISION and ACTION that I don't respect at all. Sure, I see your point, Jems and Moral, that it's their decision to make, and by God they're entitled to that!!!! But I don't have to respect it, which was my only response. I'm not cutting them up...until my next line...
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
I am disgusted by the amount of ignorance, stupidity and complete disregard for human life in this thread. |
I find it so ironic that you say that, because that's exactly how I feel about those girls...complete disregard for HUMAN life...
Furthermore, I disagree with the extent that you guys blame insanity and sickness for suicide. Certainly, depression contributes to this state of mind, but I'm pretty sure that these girls KNEW that suicide is WRONG, in general. Why didn't they kill themselves the day before? Were they not sick enough that day? It takes a lot of confidence and BALLS to just jump off a building, especially with the cute comment of "we have a surprise for you" or even writing a suicide note. That's pretty cocky, if you ask me, like they're trying to make a statement and not just look for a solution to their problem. I would even go so far as saying that revenge could play a role in this. "I'm gonna show them" or "they're gonna be sorry for how they treated me" this is very clear, rational thought...and not worthy of any respect, IMO. Of course, I don't know what they were thinking but my point is only that these girls don't seem as innocent as most of you make them seem.
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
I'd like to see what all of you internet heroes and keyboard warriors would have said if this happened to your boy/girlfriend, or a close family member. |
The reason I have such a strong opinion about this, Mr. Toyota, is because my youngest sister DID have a severe form of depression after my father passed away when she was 16. She wanted to run away from home and tried several times, only to come to the realization that she can't make it on her own and the guilt she felt of seeing my Mom cry. I respect the act of escaping your problems and trying to make it on your own if you can't follow the rules your parents establish for you, but that's the eternal struggle between parents and their kids in the game teaching responsibility. You will have rebels, which these girls clearly were, and you will have more obediant types.
My advice on this sounds very much like a father, because that's the role I assumed when the incident occurred in my family. Instead of being the rough, teasing brother I always was, I had to totally change my approach and be more gentler, patient, and understanding towards my sister. I'm sure she contemplated suicide; she mentioned it and her physical actions when she was spazzing at times really scared me into believing that was possible and always kept me on edge to be ready to help. So I know where this is coming from, and I believe my sense of what to respect out of it is fully appropriate, thanks.
My fiancee is from Paris, and she and her family (her Dad's atheist and Mom doesn't practice) also thought it was totally stupid. Her sister is the epitome of GOTH. She is also clinically depressed, and is half bald from pulling out her own hair. She visits a psychologist every other week. She's 23 years old, and this has been going on since I met Jenny 6 years ago. I call her up now and then just to check on her and make sure she's alright. She totally rebels against her parents, who are really the sweetest, most generous people in the world (they also raised Jenny) but I guess her sister has that sickness. At the same time she is very intelligent and feels the guilt of how she makes her mother feel at times, and makes good decisions on a daily basis (among bad). I respect her.
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
You can't exactly compare this to people in Rwanda, or people in other countries living a tough life.
People in third world countries mostly go through a lot of physical torture and abuse. They also lead simple lives, and it is because of this simplicity that they have time to think, time to enjoy life. Even under the hardships they face, many look at life optimistically. |
You couldn't be more wrong. I've been trying to find that bloody article for the past 1/2 hour; I was so shocked when I read that gruesome article in the conservative Globe and Mail...the woman's children were in the NEXT ROOM while all that was happening to her; she could hear her daughters screaming as she was being raped. The soldiers were also threatening to rape her daughters. I don't think you can torture someone MENTALLY any more than that. I don't think there was any optimistic way to look at life in this situation. Albeit, this is a different case because we're comparing a MOTHER to 14-YEAR OLDs, but you get my point; suicide is NEVER the answer. Even ing HITLER should have to face the embarassment and scorn from all of humanity; suicide is WAY to ing easy.
No one commented on my point about the laziness...no one agrees? No one sees anything wrong with that? Laziness is okay? I'm not talking about procrastination here---I'm talking about having a general view in life that people should strive for the BETTERMENT of humanity, for PEACE, and not just slap the world in its face. Jems, even YOU said, "peace in this universe". How does the freedom to choose suicide contribute to that?
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
I look at the daily life I'm living, and I hate it. I am stuck to the same fcuking routines every single day. Everything is on a deadline, on a tight schedule, I rarely have room to just STOP and to think freely, to actually LIVE. People living a modern life seem to take living itself for granted. Now of course, for most of them, it is not their fault, they are a product of society, but for some, it is. For some, it is because they give in to their instinctive pleasures, and their animalistic urges which leads their lives to be like this. |
1) If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you hate it so much, then you are honestly not living by the exact principles that you are defending the two girls on. 2) What you described is called RESPONSIBILITY. People living a modern life are actually LIVING. They realize that to have a family and raise children in Canada requires hard work. For the freedom to be able to sleep in a bed that you can call your own COSTS MONEY. This is completely normal---nothing strange or "product of society" about this...we all have to make a living if we want to LIVE.
| quote: | Originally posted by Dark_Archonis
When you're in a situation like those two girls, getting outside help is of utmost importance, but it looks like they were too distraught to get help, and nobody close to them noticed anything wrong.
It was thier life, which was largely controlled by society and the media, as I'm guessing they had a lack of parenting, or just simply bad parenting, otherwise they wouldn't have been in this situation. |
Who knows whether these girls' loved ones tried hard or not? These girls might have just been so stubborn and disrespectful that they didn't give a about anyone trying to help them. This is all pure speculation but again, I'm just trying to show that there's another side of the coin...you are making these girls seem way too innocent.
And with regard to society and media "largely controlling" their lives, that's just absolute bull. They LIKED the music they listened to, and enjoyed it! They WANTED to dress like that; to associate with that group. No one put a gun to their head; I'm pretty sure about that. Even with good parenting kids can go wrong, as did my sister. It was an outside natural event that pushed her over the brink; maybe a similar thing happened with these two?
| quote: | Originally posted by Cosmic Fur
Furthermore, you're living in a free world. You don't like your life? You have the power to change it, all you need is the will to change it. |
Agreed 100%. Will power exists in every human. This is different from confidence. But what bugs me is how can someone with no confidence to solve their situation (by escaping with their lives) have the balls to kill themself?
| quote: | Originally posted by loca
Once you've gone through intense depression and gotten out of it, then give your opinion. Until then you just really don't know. |
You're absolutely right Loca, I have no idea how those girls felt. God willing I'll never have to. But as someone who has seen what they probably went through, I know that there's always another way out, and it takes the VICTIM to buy into that. Those girls had the sense to attract those boys, didn't they? To write a rational note? They could have used their sense in a more positive, constructive way and now it just sucks that they didn't. What a waste :( |
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