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Girls' suicide pact shocks France (pg. 6)
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| le poulet |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
One of them - named in French newspapers as Benjamin - described how Marion and Virginie joined him and a friend in his top-floor apartment on Friday afternoon.
"They said to us: 'Wait there, we are going into the bedroom. We are going to give you a surprise.'
"Then they said: 'Come in!' And then we saw them on the window ledge. We couldn't do anything. They just jumped," he said.
A suicide note was found in one of their pockets. It read: "Life isn't worth it."
'Not happy'
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Unreal to do that to "friends". That is beyond selfish. :mad: |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Suicide is a selfish act. How much more selfish can you be leaving all your loved ones and those who does give a damn about you in such pain and hurt?
I suppose once you're dead and you don't have to worry about worldly troubles, it's easier to go kill yourself. But the after effects of your decision will perhaps devastate others. It certainly did to me when someone close to me choose not to live.
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Suicide is a selfish act!? :confused: At what point is it "acceptable" then to think of yourself. If you're in a state of perpetual torment, how the can you expect someone to keep on living for your sake and others??
I would say to that person, quit being so selfish yourself and let that person find her (his) peace - how ever she (he) finds it. Life is her gift to do with as she pleases... respect that and quite putting your selfish needs of wishing her to live despite the constant and perpetual torment it is for her every day or even the majority of the time!
You can't live your lives for someone else - live your life for yourself (or don't live it for yourself - your choice!). If life is a verifiable living hell for me, I can't believe someone would have the audacity to call me selfish because I chose to remedy the situation for myself in the manner of my choosing.
-Jem. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by loca
All i can say is wow. Some of you are judging those girls pretty damn harshly. Someone that was once close to me comitted suicide (hung himself), and while i don't think evasion is the best way to deal with your problems, i can also accept the fact that some people just can't get out of the frame of mind where death is the only solution they see.
I've seen family fight for their life while being terminally ill but that doesn't make me think those girls are "twats" or anything else. I just don't understand how some of you could say those things. If they could find no other solution to their problems or were depressed to that extent, it's a sad thing, but ultimately it was their decision. Yes, life is a gift we should all appreciate as it never lasts long enough (in my eyes anyways) but the keyword here is gift. Which means you can choose to do as you wish with that gift you've been given, and that includes taking it away.
It's sad for the families and friends they left behind, but maybe it wasn't those girls' fault. Maybe some counselling would have helped, or anti-depressants, who knows? And to the people who think intense depression is not an excuse, i would love to see you in their shoes at 14 years old, being tormented to the point where life is not worth living. Once you've gone through intense depression and gotten out of it, then give your opinion. Until then you just really don't know. |
Lauren!!!! 
That's exactly it. +1
-Jem. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Alright, I'm going to get personal for a while. Yes I have suffered depression and yes I have considered suicide. When I was 21 I fell into a deep depression and suffered a complete break down. I was diagnosed as clinically depressed, I refused drugs (I know what your thinking but yes I actually refused drugs), and ended up opting out of therapy because I just couldn't be bothered with it (symptom of the depression). I seriously considered suicide on several occasions but never actually attempted it. Why? I never made an attempt because I always came to the conclusion that the potential of happiness and a satisfying life outweighed the torment in which I was living at that moment. Essentially, I valued my life enough that I decided ending my life was too high a price to pay in order to escape my depression.
That was my call to make, I chose to sweat it out and fight through my depression because I had hope and believed my potential life was worth the effort. Had I not felt as I did I may have killed myself, who knows. The key here is that it was my choice. It wasn't your choice, it wasn't my families choice, it wasn't the churchs choice, it wasn't societies choice..... IT WAS MINE, and mine alone, only I could make the judgement of whether or not my life was worth living.
In my mind, these girls deserve the right to make that choice and they did. Now whether or not you agree with that choice doesn't matter one bit, it was their choice to make and they made it. IF they trully believed that their life was not worth enduring the pain and torment that they were living in then they made the only logical and reasonable choice. I commend them for it! They chose death, I chose life.... what does that say about us, who knows? Maybe their pain was worse then mine, maybe I'm a stronger person, maybe they couldn't see that their depression wouldn't last forever.... it really doesn't matter. As far as I'm concerned they chose to end their suffering and their choice should be respected. Just because you or I would not make the same choice doesn't mean we can discount theirs as being misguided or wrong. |
ANOTHER AMAZING POST. You summed it up and said it 100% right. Exactly... god, I wish this way of thinking was carried by more.
Thanks for dropping that into a post!
-Jem. |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jem_hadar
respect that and quite putting your selfish needs of wishing her to live despite the constant and perpetual torment it is for her every day or even the majority of the time! |
Although I wouldn't go as far as saying suicide is "selfish" I repeat that it's lazy. The other thing is that this girl wrote, "Life's not worth it." As you and I both know, the poor girl was ignorant in that moment that she wrote that. She didn't know any better; she didn't have the chance to think or look outside of her tormented little bubble.
To me, respecting people that commit suicide for their rebellious torment, means you won't try to convince them otherwise, because it's their choice and "LET THEM BE". "DON'T GET INVOLVED". Is that what you're getting at? Because if you say that you respect their decision but at the same time want to convince them otherwise (while they're alive) that sounds like a contradiction.
For me, the OPEN-MINDED viewpoint is that of trying to help as many depressed people that you can to snap out of it, and encourage them to build their self-esteem; in other words, to INTERFERE with their lives... |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by le poulet
Unreal to do that to "friends". That is beyond selfish. :mad: |
Yes, I'll agree with you on this one. The way they 'advertising' their suicide to him could have warranted far more tact.
-Jem. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
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There's alot there to which to respond.. :(
Fay, when you said "complete disregard for HUMAN life..." in referring to the chicks... dude, thats THEIR call to make and you cant fault them for it, since its only THEIR lives (not somone else's) their taking. They own their lives, hence it's entirely their call.
And so their disregarding their life? And... just because you were born, does not mean you have a duty to live your life. Because you were born (an act which of course you had not say in), you have the opportunity to live if you so chose, but if you so chose not to, all the more power to you. its one of your options, and I cant belive you and someone would find that wrong or some how not respect that.
You valuing your life and seeing all the good doesnt mean others should be finding such value as well and acting accordingly. If you disagree w/ ending life prematuraly and by a deliberate decission, then fine, you'd never do that, you must still recognize that they were acting as they had a right to.
And regarding ur comment about laziness... once again their call. if a person wants to be lazy, fine... but if you're lazy you shouldnt expect help to compensate (ie. in the case, say, of a person whos too lazy to wanna work or improve their situation but expects others to tow the line and fix it for them). In this case, their laziness (in their desire to live???) did not require someone compensating for them. How can you fault them then.?
And i dont belive is our mission in live to strive for betterment of humanity and peace. if you want to, YES , damn right, its a good cause and certainly better than striving for the opposite... but to expect that that should be our goal in life... not fair! i have the right to not make that my goal and i am not infringing on anyone else's right and whatnot by not assuming that goal!
I dont know what you're mean or at getting at when you said "Jems, even YOU said, "peace in this universe". How does the freedom to choose suicide contribute to that?"
-Jem. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jem_hadar
Suicide is a selfish act!? :confused: At what point is it "acceptable" then to think of yourself. If you're in a state of perpetual torment, how the can you expect someone to keep on living for your sake and others??
I would say to that person, quit being so selfish yourself and let that person find her (his) peace - how ever she (he) finds it. Life is her gift to do with as she pleases... respect that and quite putting your selfish needs of wishing her to live despite the constant and perpetual torment it is for her every day or even the majority of the time!
You can't live your lives for someone else - live your life for yourself (or don't live it for yourself - your choice!). If life is a verifiable living hell for me, I can't believe someone would have the audacity to call me selfish because I chose to remedy the situation for myself in the manner of my choosing.
-Jem. |
I see your logic, but I don't agree with it.
How is hurting someone who cares about you in this manner not a selfish act? It is a deliberate, cruel act to inflict such pain on those who love you, just because you don't care enough to live.
I have no problem with people committing suicide if it affects them alone. I do have a problem with them afflicting pain on others through their actions. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
Although I wouldn't go as far as saying suicide is "selfish" I repeat that it's lazy. |
So... who cares if they could have tried harder. That they could be happy later on in life is not a the point. They are not happy NOW and this solved their problem NOW. And in the grave they are not lamenting their decision. They just made choice and the one they chose was a perfectly fair one.
| quote: |
The other thing is that this girl wrote, "Life's not worth it." As you and I both know, the poor girl was ignorant in that moment that she wrote that. She didn't know any better; she didn't have the chance to think or look outside of her tormented little bubble.
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Again, Fay, so? You cant discount their choice bc 2 months later they *might* have made a different one. Plus, is it fair to make them stomach those extra 2 months (which, btw, I might add is NO certainty... it could have been 2 years or 4 yeas, or maybe only 4 weeks...) We always make decisions in the here and now we may not have made if they'd been presented at different points in time. This is one example. There is not necessarily anything wrong w/ that.. Coulda whent one way, coulda whent another. Both are fine.
| quote: | To me, respecting people that commit suicide for their rebellious torment, means you won't try to convince them otherwise, because it's their choice and "LET THEM BE". "DON'T GET INVOLVED". Is that what you're getting at? Because if you say that you respect their decision but at the same time want to convince them otherwise (while they're alive) that sounds like a contradiction.
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Just because I dont want them to die does not mean I feel they dont have the right to commit suicide. Ex. I want them to live. They want to die. I wish for myself that they'd chose to live, but I fully realize it's not my call and I have NO PLACE to say otherwise. It's like if you had a friend who got a sweet job offer in DC. I sure as hell dont want him to leave, he's my friend... but its not my call whether he does or not. Can I truly fault my friend for taking that job opportunity - OF COURSE NOT! This is similar, IMO, only the chooses are more permanent and the situation more dire. But that does not make this comparison any less value. I believe the situation and analysis is the same.
| quote: |
For me, the OPEN-MINDED viewpoint is that of trying to help as many depressed people that you can to snap out of it, and encourage them to build their self-esteem; |
If you someone wants to help and do that. But I certainly dont think everyone should be expect to assume that attitude... but if some ppl did, that's wonderful! :)
-Jem. |
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| zoogla |
Yeah dude, I hear you about the choice...but would you not be the extremely valiant and thoughtful person you are and help convince someone not to kill themselves if they told you that was their intention? I KNOW you'd help them out, which is why I'm kinda confused at your acceptance at their choosing to die!!!
When you guys talk about life as a "gift" or apply ownership to it, I feel like that is really diminishing the value of life. I don't think that's fair. You CAN'T (oops I originally wrote CAN...how confusing was that?!:p) commodify LIFE...that's like commodifying LOVE!!! You can't touch life...it's just THERE. So when people think they can throw it around LIKE A GIFT and just end it, I have real trouble comprehending it.
Maybe Peter's right and it's just my religion blinding me or something, but I truly feel it deep in my heart, beyond Allah and the Quran, and beyond my upbringing, that life is something you don't just play around with and control...you can control your thoughts and daily actions, but life is something beyond that which you can't touch.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jem_hadar
In this case, their laziness (in their desire to live???) did not require someone compensating for them. How can you fault them then. |
I meant laziness in their desire to END their life. Rather than proactively look for a solution to get out of their problems by leaving their family/home/country they chose to take the easy way out and just end their life. I wasn't referring to any form of compensation...actually I have no idea how to connect your analogy of laziness on the job to suicide...not what I meant...:conf:
| quote: | Originally posted by Jem_hadar
I dont know what you're mean or at getting at when you said "Jems, even YOU said, "peace in this universe". How does the freedom to choose suicide contribute to that?" |
I meant that perhaps "world peace" was something that you thought was a universal principle. That you could universally say that death and destruction is wrong, and peace is right. I wanted to connect your belief in this principle to suicide and try to prove that suicide is counterproductive. I failed. :p |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
How is hurting someone who cares about you in this manner not a selfish act? It is a deliberate, cruel act to inflict such pain on those who love you, just because you don't care enough to live. |
The only reason I would think it's a cruel act is if the family members were totally innocent and never did anything to harm the girl. If they didn't really show their love (which is a big possibility) then perhaps suicide is not that selfish. But at the same time, I don't think the girl's totally innocent. There's an element of vengeance in this I believe, which causes me to be against it. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
I see your logic, but I don't agree with it.
How is hurting someone who cares about you in this manner not a selfish act? It is a deliberate, cruel act to inflict such pain on those who love you, just because you don't care enough to live. |
No it is not. Suicide is NOT done to inflict pain on those who love you - that is merely a by-product of it. It is done to save yourself from your existence.
I deem those who want me to continue to live in such a tormented state to be selfish, since their actions (denying my absolute right and eligibility to kill myself) are afflicting pain on me since they are stopping me from being free of this feeling. They are causing me to remain in pain!
| quote: |
I have no problem with people committing suicide if it affects them alone. I do have a problem with them afflicting pain on others through their actions. |
Again, that's not the intent, but a sad and unfortunate affect of their decision. At what point is it fair to think of yourself. Life is not lived ONLY for others. It is lived for yourself and it is wonderful if you chose to care about others. Since life is lived for yourself, you have the absolute right to continue w/ it or end it. Certainly some decide NOT to commit suicide when they think about how their family or friends will react in the aftermath. If that is an issue for you and you decide not to do it accordingly, good. But don't look down on someone else who's priorities lie elsewhere. That person is being no more selfish than a person who would have them continue to live and continue to feel such pain.
-Jem. |
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