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Chord Progression in Epic/Anthem/Progressive Trance (pg. 4)
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| MadThijs |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichieV
well i was a little drunk when i wrote that .
The individual that started this thread was asking for a formula. There is a formula. This formula is in every harmony textbook used in university level theory. It involves a tonic function chord , which can be I VI and sometimes III going to a predominant function chord. A predominant chord is II and IV. Then going to a dominant function chord which can be V or VII. THis is a general framework that about 95% western music follows for the last 400 years. Jazz follows this framework as well; altho it is a little loser. But the concept is the same.
What diginut is refering to is elementary theory that is not even concerned with the harmonization of more than one note. I really wish he would stop pegging off the he learned in his grade 3 theory class as anything remotely relevant for more advanced theory. |
You can't dictate the theory you learn to others who might have had other teachers, even if your graduated or studying.
I'll shift this whole 1(2) on 1 to PM. So PM me if you want a respons |
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by MadThijs
I'm not confusing it. You're using it in more than one way and you assume I know both. I only know tonic as the I of every scale, and I wrote before you can make another scale degree act as a tonic but it stays a scale degree unless your progression shows something else.
So you need to give some very clear examples of what you mean.
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I've clearly stated what i mean by tonic gourp. The group of chords that fullfill a tonic role. A starting and ending role. The point where phrases begin and end.
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They do have a funvtion but:
In all music theory scale degrees already have a function: to build, sustain or release tension.
I-II Build
I-III Build
1-IV Build
I-V Build
I-VI sustain/build depends on notes you play I quess
I-VII Buils
you do the II-ItoVII
I'll continue with III wgen you're ready.
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I think there are some language issues here because don't understand what you are trying to say.
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Jazz has the quality to make huge jumps in the circle. Jumps you didn't make when Bach was around. Classical has the quality to stay in one key but move to the dominat or minor scale. Within the scales they made I's of every note in a scale with a V or VII before it.
If things in this thread are not mentioned in existing tutorials I'll continue to react. I'll check out the links in the tutorials today!! |
Wrong again. List , Dubussy Rachmaninoff all modulated to any possible chromatic pitch as the new tonal center. And this was all before jazz. I have a feeling people 's knowledge of classical music includes only people mozart. Classical music has a whole history of developments and evolution. Listen to late 19th century impressionist music and you will see all the jazz theory allready starting to be implemented. |
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by superddman
at the end of the day isn't it better to just use a single finger (at most two hehe) and come up with some interesting pattern by trial and error. Then, layer that with supporting pattern that has variations, and so on. Soon you will have beautifully sounding chords hehe
I mean, i have tried to put theories in practice but it just slowed me down.
My advice, start with the most basic pattern and build on that.
What do you guys think? Is this complete BS? |
i think it is just a very slow way. I think it is way faster to learn why things are the way they are and you can just make chord progressions that sound great without having to do guess work.
I suppose this approach would work with extremely simple music like trance but try creating anything that demands a greater knowledge of tonal theory and you will be lost. |
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| DigiNut |
"Grade 3 theory" actually is Harmony, so again I fail to see your point. There are only 5 grades to begin with, 3 and 4 are harmony and 5 is counterpoint. That's at the RCM - other conservatories (i.e. Trinity) have fewer grades.
I believe that the progression in the prelude you mentioned is I-II-V7-I (V7 being dominant 7th, which has its root on V, not VII), not I-II-VII-VI, and that's only at the *very* beginning. I could, however, be wrong - I have a copy of Das Wohltemperirte Clavier lying around and I will check the validity of that statement. |
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
"Grade 3 theory" actually is Harmony, so again I fail to see your point. There are only 5 grades to begin with, 3 and 4 are harmony and 5 is counterpoint. That's at the RCM - other conservatories (i.e. Trinity) have fewer grades.
I believe that the progression in the prelude you mentioned is I-II-V7-I (V7 being dominant 7th, which has its root on V, not VII), not I-II-VII-VI. I could, however, be wrong - I have a copy of Das Wohltemperirte Clavier lying around and I will check the validity of that statement. |
it appears in the piece. II can go to V , and VII is a substitute for V. And university theory classes make RCM look like kindergarten. Just to let you know.
and for sake of clarity , i never bothered putting wether a chord is 7th chord because this will just confuse people.
But the beginning is actually I II4/2 V6/5 I |
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| superddman |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichieV
i think it is just a very slow way. I think it is way faster to learn why things are the way they are and you can just make chord progressions that sound great without having to do guess work.
I suppose this approach would work with extremely simple music like trance but try creating anything that demands a greater knowledge of tonal theory and you will be lost. |
yes, i agree that for maybe acoustic music it would be harder to do it this way.
I have anylyzed contless popular trance midi patterns and i have not found anything complex, just lots of layering.
Choosing right sound and proper layering is the most important in trance imo. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichieV
it appears in the piece. II can go to V , and VII is a substitute for V. And university theory classes make RCM look like kindergarten. Just to let you know. |
I took some in university, they're pretty much interchangeable.
Once again, VII is *not* simply a substitute for V. Saying they're in the same tonal category is misleading, but saying that one is a substitute for the other is just plain wrong. VII is *sometimes* used as a substitute for V7, but do it too often and it kills the momentum. |
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by superddman
yes, i agree that for maybe acoustic music it would be harder to do it this way.
I have anylyzed contless popular trance midi patterns and i have not found anything complex, just lots of layering.
Choosing right sound and proper layering is the most important in trance imo. |
yes but the actual chord progressions used follow the tonal syntax. Why do all the work when it has already been done. Just study the theory and you won't have to do guess work to find that melody and chord progression to harmonize it |
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| superddman |
| quote: | Originally posted by RichieV
http://www3.telus.net/joanmey/choir-01b.mp3
take a listen . 90% of this musical example was done 100% on paper without even listening to it just following tonal theory. IT is that easy. |
thats actually pretty cool, making a pattern like this without even listening to it
i mean, i wished i knew theory by heart but other times I like to take the easy way out. |
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| RichieV |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I took some in university, they're pretty much interchangeable.
Once again, VII is *not* simply a substitute for V. Saying they're in the same tonal category is misleading, but saying that one is a substitute for the other is just plain wrong. VII is *sometimes* used as a substitute for V7, but do it too often and it kills the momentum. |
jesus
i am not talking about style. I'm talking about the basic rules. VII can be used as a substitute for V. I never said you should do it all the time nor did i ever say that that is VII's only function. I was trying to show that the progression you outlined using VII is actually a valid tonal line.
and what university courses did you take ? And at what university ? |
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| superddman |
interesting thread i must admit.
i have to say that from richiev's demostration I would like to get stronger with theory. What do you suggest is the best road to take? |
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