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france :seventh night of riots (pg. 2)
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I'd suggest ordering the military to shoot at sight - and to kill or maim. |
Yeah, that's not a bad idea either. Anyway seems like today the muslim riots have spread to Germany and Belgium. I'm just wondering what exactly the organizers of riots want? It's not like they're being opressed or discriminated against. Besides, the "reason" that started the riots was rediculous. Two teenagers supposedly(!) died of electricution because police chased them. So in what? The police didn't force them to run and they certainly didn't throw them onto that electric fence. Seriously, if I was french, I'd be voting for Le Pen on the next election. |
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| TranceEuphoria |
Yes its right, the violence has already spread to germany. last night several cars were burned down in berlin. in bremen some people set a dustbin on fire. the problem is that it is now easy for those people to get attention.
the reason for the violence is france was absolutely not ridiculous. it was not just because of the death of two young men, who died while being
chased by the police. we have to look behind the scences. since years the french goverment failed to integrate the north africans/arabs. a lot of them live in ghettos in the suburbs of big citys. in some of these areas the average unemployment rate is 30 per cent. the criminality rate in these areas is also very high. the kids in these suburbs have no hope for a better future. thatswhy they express their hate in these violence, but in the end its cry for help. don't get me wrong here, i also excoriate the actions, but the french government (and the german also, i can tell you) made some big mistakes in their integration policy in the last years. and now they have to pay for that.
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| HardTranceProd |
nobody answered my question.
i'm scheduled to visit Paris Dec. 1-4. I'll be arriving by train from Germany.
Should I stay away from France and spend my vacation in Germany? I'll be in Hamburg/Bremen. Will that area be safe?
And right now Continental Airlines isn't going to refund my ticket Paris-US because they didn't receive any official warnings from the State Dept. |
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| choukri |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
nobody answered my question.
i'm scheduled to visit Paris Dec. 1-4. I'll be arriving by train from Germany.
Should I stay away from France and spend my vacation in Germany? I'll be in Hamburg/Bremen. Will that area be safe?
And right now Continental Airlines isn't going to refund my ticket Paris-US because they didn't receive any official warnings from the State Dept. |
Don't be afraid, there is a gap between what the media said and the reality. All these riots occured in the suburb of the main cities, in some really specific small cities. That is all. Try to make your own opinion about the situation, I know it's difficult but come to the french section.
This is a fight between some policemen and some lost young boys. Ok you have a huge amount of cars burnt but that's all. |
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| St_Andrew |
| Yeah exactly, it's not like you will be at risk in the downtown area. And besides, I don't think any "civilians" have been hurt yet either... |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Yeah exactly, it's not like you will be at risk in the downtown area. And besides, I don't think any "civilians" have been hurt yet either... |
I think there was the first civilian death last night.
Also, to HardTraceProd, it's 3-4 weeks away. At this point, who knows what things will be like then. You're just going to have to wait longer and find out. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
And right now Continental Airlines isn't going to refund my ticket Paris-US because they didn't receive any official warnings from the State Dept. |
Perhaps there is no offical warning because the US doesn't believe the situation warrants one?
Just a thought;) |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Perhaps there is no offical warning because the US doesn't believe the situation warrants one?
Just a thought;) |
Actually there is a US warning to "be in the affected areas". There is a huge difference between a warning and if they tell you to stay away though. And it's not like he's going to be in the affected areas anyway...
But yeah, take it easy! I would think it would be cool to be in the centre of the world news :p |
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| Zombie0915 |
I stumbled upon this article about the french integration approach:
| quote: | French integration model fails
Mon Nov 7, 2005 9:41 AM ET
By Tom Heneghan
PARIS (Reuters) - With every night of violent rioting that scars France's rundown suburbs, more and more French say their distinctive model of integration, based on the revolutionary ideal of equality for all, has failed.
But President Jacques Chirac and his conservative allies are unlikely to join the critics, as that would mean accepting the approach France considers superior is no better than integration policies abroad.
Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy is the only top politician saying France's "republican model" falls short and that the U.S. or British "melting pot" approach could help break the cycle of minority exclusion, unemployment and revolt.
This desire to change the system lies at the heart of his rivalry with Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who defends the supposedly color-blind French model against the racial quotas and help for Muslim groups that Sarkozy advocates.
Michel Wieviorka, a leading sociologist, said the recent riots indicated "the decline -- perhaps historic -- of the so-called French model of republican integration".
"This is a total crisis," he said at the weekend. "They (the riots) tell us we cannot continue with politicians who tell us to carry on with an exhausted model."
Labour Minister Jean-Louis Borloo described the failure in blunt terms on Sunday but, unlike Sarkozy, stopped short of calling for an overhaul of France's model of integration.
"France ... thought its model, which says let's put schools everywhere, and the same number of teachers everywhere, and everybody has the same rights, was going to solve a complex problem," he told Europe 1 radio.
"Our urban planning concentrated some people in the same place ... and thought with a kind of republican arrogance that (integration) would work out naturally. Well, we messed up our urban planning and we need more funds."
HIGH THRESHOLD
Inspired by the "liberty, equality, fraternity" motto of its 1789 revolution, the French republic officially rejects any consideration of race, creed or color that could undermine national unity.
It asks immigrants to integrate by forgetting their roots and becoming like the French, rather than the less ambitious view in countries such as Britain and the United States that newcomers should learn English, obey the law and pay taxes.
Crises abroad such as the London bombings by Islamist militants, or the sight of poor, black Americans stranded in flooded New Orleans, are often occasions for smug comment in France on the dangers of admitting that ethnic minorities exist.
But many suburbs built for immigrants in the 1960s and 1970s have become ghettos little different from slums in other countries. Unemployment there runs two to three times higher than the 10 percent national average and residents -- many of them Muslim -- complain of discrimination.
"We now see the consequences of 30 years of social and ethnic segregation," said Manuel Valls, the young mayor of the troubled suburb of Evry, south of Paris. "What I call a 'territorial apartheid' just gets worse and worse.
"We are experiencing the failure of the French integration model," Valls, who himself was born in Spain, told the daily Le Parisien. "This could be fatal to our republican model."
Claude Bebear, founder of the Axa insurance group and one of France's most influential businessmen, complained that Paris had been "cramming shovel-loads of public money into a fake integration machine for the past 25 years".
In an article for the business daily Les Echos, he said France should loosen restrictions on private companies to let them pursue job-creating growth rather than "constricting our economy to keep up a false and defunct social model."
"NOT PART OF OUR UNIVERSE"
What catches many French leaders in a bind is their belief that the alternative to their strong state intervening to ensure color-blind equality is the cut-throat capitalism and ethnic segregation they say prevails in English-speaking countries.
When Sarkozy says the best social system is the one that produces jobs and that the French model is not doing that, his comments are met not with approval but retorts that the French model is fine and needs only to be better applied.
In a scene that spoke volumes, National Assembly Speaker Jean-Louis Debre -- a close Chirac ally and passionate defender of the republican model -- was shocked and almost speechless on Sunday as he surveyed riot damage in Evreux, where he is mayor.
"A hundred people have smashed everything and strewn desolation," he commented. "Well, they don't form part of our universe." |
It makes me curous about how the French mothod of integration differs from the method used in English speaking countries. Can somebody go into detail about that a bit more than this article that I found? Mind you this article isn't me stating my opinion about anything it was just a piece of information that I found which made me curious. |
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| jonSun |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
nobody answered my question.
i'm scheduled to visit Paris Dec. 1-4. I'll be arriving by train from Germany.
Should I stay away from France and spend my vacation in Germany? I'll be in Hamburg/Bremen. Will that area be safe?
And right now Continental Airlines isn't going to refund my ticket Paris-US because they didn't receive any official warnings from the State Dept. |
I wouldnt worry. In 3 weeks you would expect the French govt to have this situation to be under control. The French people want this to end more than anybody. Also your going to Paris, its not like its Somalia. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zombie0915
I stumbled upon this article about the french integration approach:
It makes me curous about how the French mothod of integration differs from the method used in English speaking countries. Can somebody go into detail about that a bit more than this article that I found? Mind you this article isn't me stating my opinion about anything it was just a piece of information that I found which made me curious. |
It says right there, instead like the US and UK let the immigrants be as long as they obey the laws and have a job, France tries to make their immigrants French! Ie they must change culture... Also instead of giving them a job they give them government grants to do nothing, so they just end up in the suberb hanging around... Which is increadibly stupid imo (sweden is doing the same thing, although not as extreame and we have huge problems with our immigrants as well). |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
It says right there, instead like the US and UK let the immigrants be as long as they obey the laws and have a job, France tries to make their immigrants French! Ie they must change culture... Also instead of giving them a job they give them government grants to do nothing, so they just end up in the suberb hanging around... Which is increadibly stupid imo (sweden is doing the same thing, although not as extreame and we have huge problems with our immigrants as well). |
Wow, I didn't know that. That's highly ineffective and silly. How could they expect a practice like that to produce positive results? |
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