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france :seventh night of riots (pg. 5)
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| shaolin_Z |
Dude, calm down.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
You pointed out two accounts on which LazFX was being racially biased, and then claimed that such prejudice is the result of media propaganda. I don't buy that last one. In Denmark we have plenty of racists but we have an extremely left-wing oriented press. |
Well, I don't know what the media in Denmark is like and I wasn't referring to it eigther. I was referring to western media in general (mainly those published in English as those are the only ones I can read, but I imagine that most of them aren't terribly different in this regard). Propoganda isn't only limited to disinformation/misrepresentation, it also extends to what they choose to cover (EDIT: and what they choose not tocover), and how they choose to cover it. And just to clarify, in this specific case, I was only referring to the misleading Fox story, not claiming that ed up wasn't happening. Don't take this the wrong way, but how would you know unless you're actually informed enough about the religion/culture to actually notice it in the first place? Where else do most people get their ideas from? Most people certainly don't read books or watch documentaries on the religion/culture, what information they gather, accurate or not, comes from the media/TV.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I think that you have misunderstood my position. Let me clarify in no-nonsense terms:
I consistently fail to sympathize with stupid people, no matter whether they choose to exhibit their stupidity by religous or secular means. Furthermore, I find downright destructive behaviour (and taking your anger out on innocents falls into this category) repulsive, and won't excuse it. |
I'm not saying you should...
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
To me these rioters fall below any kind of animal on the evolutionary scale, and I don't care what humilations they have suffered, religion they follow, their ancestry, or whether they actually have a reason for being upset. |
...but ignoring the cause (or atleast significant contributing factors) of a problem doesn't help solving it. (again, this is not a blame-game of who's more at fault)
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
In a democracy with a free press there's tons of ways to broadcast your problems, and even more ways to try to aleviate them by seeking influence. Rioting like this is either an expression of extreme stupidity or arrogance. I don't know what I dislike the most. |
I'm not entirely sure this is the most accecible means for them, as it's already been stated earlier in this thread that they have crapy/minimal education/access to education, aren't well integrated and live in the ghettos.
Free press? What free press. Name one country where they have a truly "free press." I'm certainly not aware of one, especially one accessible to ill-integrated and poorly educated immigrants/first or second generation citizens.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
If you read my posts from the last years, you'll see that I am very critical of any kind of fundamentalism/extremism/stupidity, no matter if it is carried out by or against muslims/jews/christians/atheists. |
Yes, I'm aware of that.
Other than that, you did suggest killing/maiming them. How the hell am I supposed to interpret that, or what you meant by it?
EDIT: And just in case you misunderstood, I never intended to imply that you were racist/prejudiced. Just thought I'd clear that up.
EDIT: I also don't udnerstand why you're so angry at me. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Dude, calm down.
Well, I don't know what the media in Denmark is like and I wasn't referring to it eigther. I was referring to western media in general (mainly those published in English as those are the only ones I can read, but I imagine that most of them aren't terribly different in this regard). Propoganda isn't only limited to disinformation/misrepresentation, it also extends to what they choose to cover, and how they choose to cover it. And just to clarify, in this specific case, I was only referring to the misleading Fox story, not claiming that ed up wasn't happening. Don't take this the wrong way, but how would you know unless you're actually informed enough about the religion/culture to actually notice it in the first place? Where else do most people get their ideas from? Most people certainly don't read books or watch documentaries on the religion/culture, what information they gather, accurate or not, comes from the media/TV.
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Wow! How does one call others ignorant with what you just said. you are not really informed about the religion or culture either dude, to be informed you must be in it, not sitting sipping coffee at some cafe in Austin Tx.
Ha ha ha |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
Wow! How does one call others ignorant with what you just said. you are not really informed about the religion or culture either dude, to be informed you must be in it, not sitting sipping coffee at some cafe in Austin Tx.
Ha ha ha |
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: |
Ha ha ha I am sorry I forgot to say, sipping on coffee in Austin, TX. While reading about the so called world problems on your Western Powered Laptop.
Is that funnier?? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
Ha ha ha I am sorry I forgot to say, sipping on coffee in Austin, TX. While reading about the so called world problems on your Western Powered Laptop.
Is that funnier?? |
:stongue: No I cracked up because I am Mulism and am informed about my religion and pan-Middle Eastern/Sub-continental culture. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Dude, calm down. |
I'm perfectly calm. You argued as if I was in some way oblivious to the plights of muslims, and I gave the most clear cut answer as I could to the effect of dispeling that misconception.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Well, I don't know what the media in Denmark is like and I wasn't referring to it eigther. I was referring to western media in general (mainly those published in English as those are the only ones I can read, but I imagine that most of them aren't terribly different in this regard). Propoganda isn't only limited to disinformation/misrepresentation, it also extends to what they choose to cover, and how they choose to cover it. And just to clarify, in this specific case, I was only referring to the misleading Fox story, not claiming that ed up wasn't happening. Don't take this the wrong way, but how would you know unless you're actually informed enough about the religion/culture to actually notice it in the first place? Where else do most people get their ideas from? Most people certainly don't read books or watch documentaries on the religion/culture, what information they gather, accurate or not, comes from the media/TV. |
Well, you empathized *you* so I take it that you mean me. I get my knowledge from the muslims that are my friends, and from this forum. I'm of a curious nature and ask a lot of questions when I'm with people who I do not understand completely - which most often is religous people. Hindu, muslims, jews, christians - you name it, and I have probably been questioning them about their religion and traditions.
Btw. taken from a logical point of view, your conjecture suffers from a flaw: If news media is really the cause of anti-muslim feelings - how did the news media turn anti-muslim then?
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm not saying you should...
...but ignoring the cause (or atleast significant contributing factors) of a problem doesn't help solving it. (again, this is not a blame-game of who's more at fault) |
Listen to this, and see if it makes sense: You put a carton of milk into your fridge, but unfortunately it has a hole in the bottom, and after a couple of hours milk leaks into the bottom of the fridge, and causes a short-circuit due to a badly shielded cable, which again causes the fridge, and then the house, to catch fire.
Now you're standing outside the house watching it yield to the flames. Do you run into the house putting all your milk cartons into plastic bags to prevent another accident? Do you contact the company that created your fridge to ask for a new one, seeing that the wiring of the old one was clearly faulty? No, you run for water and call the fire department!
As far as I can see, there's two problems in France:
1: There's a large group (A) of non-integrated Africans.
2: There's a large group (B) of stupid people causing havoc.
Even if group B is a sub-group of group A, that doesn't necessarily mean that solving problem 1 is the right strategy to tackle problem 2. Another analogy might further illustrate this:
1': There's a large group (A') of sexually frustrated ugly men.
2': There's a group (B') of men that has just gang raped a woman.
Again it's plausible to suggest that group B' is a sub-group of group A'. Are you suggesting that we solve B' by seeking to eliminate group A'? I think that group B' has been suffering from a further defect, viz. that they have been unable or unwilling to think their actions through, and can therefore not excuse themselves by claiming membership of A' or any other super-group.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm not entirely sure this is the most accecible means for them, as it's already been stated earlier in this thread that they have crapy/minimal education/access to education, aren't well integrated and live in the ghettos. |
I'm curious where you draw the line for what is minimal involvement in a society before you can expect it to care about you? Say, if I moved to Bulgaria and refused to speak anything but Danish, would it also be ok for me to start vandalizing a little here and there?
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Free press? What free press. Name one country where they have a truly "free press." I'm certainly not aware of one, especially one accessible to ill-integrated and poorly educated immigrants/first or second generation citizens. |
in Denmark we have a free press. Remember the Muhammad-drawings? That was a demonstration that the press is free - even from social/political correctness constraints.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Other than that, you did suggest killing/maiming them. How the hell am I supposed to interpret that[...]? |
Literally. If the ante is suddenly raised from getting arrested to getting killed, I think that most youngsters would reconsider their commitment to rioting. |
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| jdat |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
FOX NEWS ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!
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If New York Times is the newspaper by which all other papers are compared to in terms of accuracy, Fox News in a similar way is the news station by which all medias compare to as the things not to do or say.
Fox News presents a tight niche of political bias, fabricated stories and purely dramatic journalism to try and get everyone angry.
Ps: Your poor spelling skils are an insult to humanity.
| quote: | Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l
and please don't try to give to these people any excuses cuz they don't deserve any ...certainly they are poor and maybe discriminated but as we see most of these people are teens instead of burning cars and others delinquence acts why don't they study hard and try to achieve some goals?education is free in this country ....if u study and work hard yes u can succeed so yeah the fact is that they are lazy and prefer the easiest way to live on welfare and causing troubles because they are bored and yeah after that they blame our society ....bull instead of burning cars and attacking cops they should better go to school and do something better of their lives ! |
I don't know if it's good that I point things out as a problem as they might just be interpreted as poor excuses but this current conflict is just the result of years of buildup.
Several years ago when people from the suburbs came into Paris to have a gang fight the whole country was in shock .... what alternative was offered? More police.
Repression is a means of keeping the problem under cover but it's not a solution to the deeper needs.
Nicolas Sarkozy saying stupid things over and over hasn't helped either. Saying he'd clean ghettos with high pressure washers in such a way that is was easy to have a flawed interpretation that he wanted to rid these parts of foreigners.
Or stating that he doesn't appreciate thugs which was interpreted as him not liking arabs / young people.
It's all up to interpretation and I'm not saying that what I stated was correct but it shows it's a very shaky ground he is venturing himself into.
It's important to kick some dirt around sometimes by using some strong words but you have to do it with some tact which he has not had so far.
In regards to education you have to realize the system as a whole is flawed to the core.
Education may be free but it most certainly comes at a BIG cost:
Failure to complete your education.
When comparing the french educational system to other countries it is easy to see that here the basic goal of goals is to eliminate you.
In universities which are supposed to represent the fruit of a nations brains the completion rate of education in these schools in France approximates 38% ( versus 50% on average in other G8 countries )!!!!!
I have seen many extremely willing students fail because the year after their class was cut down by 50% students ... what kind of garbage is that?
Students in these poorer parts are too often offered apprentiships as only alternatives but that's a terrible idea considering most of these jobs pay next to nothing and no one could provide for themselves and their family; once again bringing them back to dependance on the state with monetary assistance from the governement.
I feel personaly insulted by Dominique Villepin suggesting bringing down the age of apprentiship to 14 years old compared to 16 which is the current standard.
Now unto comparing France to the US, the african american group in the US has some role models like Jessie Jackson ( which are slowly being replaced by rappers exclusively it appears )etc but in France arabs have no real role models setting aside rappers.
I'm a bit angry that there doesn't appear to be anyone taking a position to becoming a leader in their community or at least that's the impression I get through the media.
If there was a predominant figure that was there to represent their community that person would be in a news conference right now and would make a statement telling these thugs to stop it; very much in the same way that let's say Michael Jordan made a statement back in the 90s for fans to stop destroying shop windows whenever the Chicago Bulls would win or lose a game.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
In a democracy with a free press there's tons of ways to broadcast your problems, and even more ways to try to aleviate them by seeking influence. Rioting like this is either an expression of extreme stupidity or arrogance. I don't know what I dislike the most.
If you read my posts from the last years, you'll see that I am very critical of any kind of fundamentalism/extremism/stupidity, no matter if it is carried out by or against muslims/jews/christians/atheists. |
That statement couldn't be farther from the truth.
Too many times in the media it is only the loudest voice that gets heard; yes being the strongest voice could be achieved by organizing yourself in groups through petitions etc but in the end it's the vile and the angry that get heard.
In conclusion it's important to realize that what is happening right now is the fruit of very small groups. It only takes a few people to burn a bunch of cars.
You must also keep in mind that these vandals are a minority inside these cities and that they are far from being exclusively immigrants childrens born in France. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
:stongue: No I cracked up because I am Mulism and am informed about my religion and pan-Middle Eastern culture. |
No disrespect Shaolin but;
That don't mean to me. I don't care if you were a hindu and you were informed about the crime rate in New Deli, but How can you be so informed when the news you get is and probrobly is slanted as much if not as much as where I get my news from?? Or how can you be sure that the book you are reading is not slanting the truth??
YOU CAN"T tell, Nor can I, why is that??
Here is the reason;
Unless you live or lived it, then you are just as informed as any one else on here.
So I guess your vast expreience in your religion and the "pan-Middle Eastern Culture" told you that I wasn't french??? :rolleyes:
No I bet I met you before, I can not remember it but it was at a club that i did a gig for. And that very intelligent mind of your deduced that he "looks like a mexican." Was it the dark brown hair? the tanned color of my skin?? So who has racial issues?
I have had a laugh today, now I must go and save the world from dirty clothes and do my laundry. :) maybe we can meet up and have a drink.
peace, love and gods ;)
Laz
serious on the drinks man, we might have different views, but arn't we Texans first?? ;) |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by jdat
Ps: Your poor spelling skils are an insult to humanity.
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Hey Ignorant
p.s. I do rather well to have one working hand.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
10 years of psyche and medical bills out the ing window...........................................:D |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
No disrespect Shaolin but;
That don't mean to me. I don't care if you were a hindu and you were informed about the crime rate in New Deli, but How can you be so informed when the news you get is and probrobly is slanted as much if not as much as where I get my news from?? Or how can you be sure that the book you are reading is not slanting the truth??
YOU CAN"T tell, Nor can I, why is that??
Here is the reason;
Unless you live or lived it, then you are just as informed as any one else on here.
So I guess your vast expreience in your religion and the "pan-Middle Eastern Culture" told you that I wasn't french??? :rolleyes: |
Actually I do have first hand experience with it. Eventhough I was born in Greenville, South Carolina, my parent's moved around alot (5 different states & 3 countires), including Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I've pretty much grown up all over the place and am pretty familiar with both cultures.
And as far as keeping up with the current events/news goes, I mostly use the internet so I have access to various publications from all over the world (like BBC, NYTimes, Al-jazeera etc). That way I get many different perspectives.
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
No I bet I met you before, I can not remember it but it was at a club that i did a gig for. And that very intelligent mind of your deduced that he "looks like a mexican." Was it the dark brown hair? the tanned color of my skin?? So who has racial issues? |
Actually, you're confusing me for someone else. You PMed me this summer telling me about a gig you were going to spin at in Austin. I was taking classes at college and was really busy with those and couldn't make it. So I've never acutally met you in person although it would be cool to meet up with a fellow Texas TA. :)
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
I have had a laugh today, now I must go and save the world from dirty clothes and do my laundry. :) maybe we can meet up and have a drink.
peace, love and gods ;)
Laz
serious on the drinks man, we might have different views,
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Yeah, that sounds good. I'm down for it. I barely know anyone in Austin into Trance or EDM.
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
but arn't we Texans first?? ;) |
Haha. Funny you should mention that. As far as identiying with a Nation/State/City goes, I have no clue what I identify with, given the fact that I've moved around so much. :p |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Actually, you're confusing me for someone else. You PMed me this summer telling me about a gig you were going to spin at in Austin. I was taking classes at college and was really busy with those and couldn't make it. So I've never acutally met you in person although it would be cool to meet up with a fellow Texas TA. :)
Yeah, that sounds good. I'm down for it. I barely know anyone in Austin into Trance or EDM.
Haha. Funny you should mention that. As far as identiying with a Nation/State/City goes, I have no clue what I identify with, given the fact that I've moved around so much. :p |
Shameless plug!! ;)
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| Yoepus |
Good op-ed about this in yesterday's WSJ:
| quote: |
COMMENTARY
Bonfire of the Vanities
By THEODORE DALRYMPLE
November 7, 2005; Page A20
When it comes to rioting, there's no 35-hour week in France.
It may be difficult nowadays to get people in what the French call the Hexagon to work on Friday afternoons, but not to riot, at least not in the "sensitive" quartiers that surround most towns and cities. The productivity of the rioters has been increasing rapidly of late, and France looks like it will be breaking its record for burnt-out cars: 1,295 on Saturday night alone and 750 on Friday night, 500 the night before, and 300 the night before that. This year so far, the tally is 29,000. If the trend of the last few days continues, geometric progression being what it is, it won't be long before the rioters will have to go to Germany or the Low Countries to express their social conscience in a practical way.
Its social conscience is something that the French elite has long taken pride in. The term "Anglo-Saxon" is now almost synonymous in the parlance of that elite with "savage liberalism," a state of affairs which is alleged to prevail on the other side of the Channel, and to an even greater and more terrible extent on the other side of the Atlantic, in which an economic free-for-all leads to mass discontent, grotesque economic inequalities, lawlessness and endemic instability punctuated by violent civil disturbances. Fortunately, the French social model avoids this miserable chaos, at least in theory (which, as every Cartesian intellectual will tell you, is what really counts).
* * *
No one should gloat over riots in other countries, since such Schadenfreude is usually soon punished by riots nearer home. After what happened recently in New Orleans or in Birmingham, who would dare to assert that what is happening in the suburbs of Paris could never happen chez les Anglo-Saxons? But at the very least, the events in the suburbs of Paris should puncture French complacency that they have developed a model of society vastly superior and more humane to that of supposedly savage economic liberalism.
In any case, the difference between France and other Western countries is smaller than is often claimed both by the French and by everyone else. The outskirts of most cities in France, including such venerable ones as Nimes and Montpellier, resemble small town Midwest America far more than they resemble their medieval or classical and historic centers. The state in France is certainly larger and more intrusive than elsewhere, leading to a dampening of economic activity, but it is a difference of degree rather than of kind.
A French employee works 30% fewer hours than a British worker, and a much smaller percentage of the French population than the British works at all, yet total French output is very nearly equal in value to British. In other words, the French are much more efficient economically than the British. But their relative efficiency has been bought at a price: the creation of a large caste of people more or less permanently unintegrated into the rest of society.
A Martian observing France dispassionately, without ideological preconceptions, would come to the conclusion that the French had accepted with equanimity a kind of social settlement in which all those with jobs would enjoy various legally sanctioned perks and protections, while those without jobs would remain unemployed forever, though they would be tossed enough state charity to keep body and cellphone together. And since there are many more employed people than unemployed people in France, this is a settlement that suits most people, who will vote for it forever. It is therefore politically unassailable, either by the left or the right, which explains the paralysis of the French state in the present impasse.
The only fly in the ointment (apart from the fact that the rest of the economies of the world won't leave the French economy in peace) is that the portion of the population whom the interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, so tactlessly, but in the secret opinion of most Frenchmen so accurately, referred to as the "racaille" -- scum -- is not very happy with the settlement as it stands. It wants to be left alone to commit crimes uninterrupted by the police, as is its inalienable right.
Unfortunately, to economic division is added ethnic and cultural division: For the fact is that most of Mr. Sarkozy's racaille are of North African or African descent, predominantly Muslim. And the French state has adopted, whether by policy or inadvertence, the South African solution to the problem of social disaffection (in the days of Apartheid): It has concentrated the great majority of the disaffected paupers geographically in townships whose architecture would have pleased that great Francophone (actually Swiss) modernist architect, Le Corbusier, who -- be it remembered -- wanted to raze the whole of Paris and rebuild it along the lines of Clichy-sous-Bois (known now as Clichy-sur-Jungle).
If you wanted to create and run a battery farm for young delinquents, you could hardly do better. But as one "community leader" put it when asked whether he thought that better architecture might help, there's no point in turning 15-story chicken coops into three-story chicken coops.
The French left, ever vigilant on behalf of the downtrodden privileged, won't consider a reform of the labor market that might just help to integrate the racaille into French society. The French right, by contrast, wants to deal with the problem first by ignoring it -- for, as the South African whites used to say about the rioting Africans, they are only fouling their own nest -- and then, if the worst comes to the worst and the violence spills over to where the decent people live, by repressing it with force. Anyone who has seen members of the Compagnies Republicaines de Securité, the CRS, in the streets of Paris, even on a good day, will not doubt their willingness to obey orders with something approaching overenthusiasm. As one officer in the force reportedly put it, "The more difficult it is, the calmer we are."
* * *
If push were ever to come to shove, the trains to the townships could be turned off, assuming they were not wrecked first by the inhabitants themselves, and the roads to the center of Paris (and other towns and cities) could be blocked with a few armored cars or a couple of tanks. A state of emergency could be declared, after which the CRS could go about its business in all calmness and serenity. The left would squeal and protest a bit, but secretly be relieved that, thanks to the CRS, the labor laws protecting their voters did not have to be changed after all, with the consequent introduction of "savage liberalism" into France.
A few years later, there would be a spate of books about the violence of the repression, and everyone would express his shock and horror that such a thing could have happened in the land of les droits de l'homme, but then everyone would forget it all again until a further 20 years had elapsed, when there would be another spate of such books to arouse the tender conscience of the French intelligentsia.
Of course, apocalypses have a habit of not happening. The present riots are only a temporary exacerbation of "normal" life in French lower-class and immigrant suburbs. (In all of Western society, not just France, social housing means antisocial behavior.) Even when there are no riots, such suburbs are strewn with the carcasses of burnt-out cars, like skeletons in a desert, and one can see the blackened remains of shops that have been put to the torch. Drug-trafficking goes on openly, and the hostility to outsiders is palpable.
The current interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, is the first French politician to suggest some approach to the problem other than building more community centers made of concrete and named after great French poets. As a result, he is both hated and feared, and the rioters must hope that if they burn enough cars and kindergartens he will be forced to resign and thus lose his chance of winning the presidency and letting the CRS loose. This will enable "les jeunes" to return to the life they know and understand, that of criminality without interference by the state.
The Paris stock exchange has every confidence that, in the end, Sarkozy or no Sarkozy, the French state will emerge victorious over the disorganized racaille, and everything can continue as before. The index has risen steadily -- or calmly, to quote the officer of the CRS -- throughout the disturbances.
Mr. Dalrymple, a contributing editor at City Journal, is the author, most recently, of "Our Culture, What's Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses" (Ivan R. Dee, 2005). He lives in Le Vans, in the Ardèche, in France.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113...days_us_opinion
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