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france :seventh night of riots (pg. 6)
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| HardTranceProd |
I don't really see a big difference between the US and France.
In the US, hordes of fanatical religious fundamentalists want to take over the country and move it permanently off-center. They're as bitter as the French Muslim youth. |
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| Zombie0915 |
That was a neat article, the economic effeciency thing was pretty interesting. I didn't know that France was free of "grotesque economic inequalaties" either, do they pay everybody equally or something, how is it not a free for all? I also fail to understand how some employment reform would necessarily mean introducing "savage liberalism".
I guess I just have no idea how things work over there. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
They're as bitter as the French Muslim youth. |
Well maybe not quite as bitter.;)
Plus, it seems to me like the rioters in France don't really want to do anything but cause trouble and burn things. What is their goal? France very well could be going through another revolution. If things don't calm down soon, this could get a lot uglier before it gets better. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I think that you have misunderstood my position. Let me clarify in no-nonsense terms:
I consistently fail to sympathize with stupid people, no matter whether they choose to exhibit their stupidity by religous or secular means. Furthermore, I find downright destructive behaviour (and taking your anger out on innocents falls into this category) repulsive, and won't excuse it. To me these rioters fall below any kind of animal on the evolutionary scale, and I don't care what humilations they have suffered, religion they follow, their ancestry, or whether they actually have a reason for being upset. In a democracy with a free press there's tons of ways to broadcast your problems, and even more ways to try to aleviate them by seeking influence. Rioting like this is either an expression of extreme stupidity or arrogance. I don't know what I dislike the most.
If you read my posts from the last years, you'll see that I am very critical of any kind of fundamentalism/extremism/stupidity, no matter if it is carried out by or against muslims/jews/christians/atheists. |
+1! :toothless |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
And how are you so sure of that? I'm not defending the rioters or their actions, but a huge group people don't get upset and riot for no good reason. And it doesn't make sense that a single event would be the sole reason for the riots. There probably was a fair amount of tension and discontentment to being with and the two teens being killed was probably the spark that set of this mayhem.
I think you're smart enough to not believe everything you read. (I'm not saying the events didn't happen, but the media chooses how to report it. Perhaps their reporting was completely honest and objective, but do you really expect that from any media outlet?)
Read above. |
Yes well obviosly I do not believe that the supposed electricution of some likely delinquents was the real reason. I have mentioned it because the hooligans used it as a sort of lame justification of their riots.
Now, as for the real reasons behind the riots...The real reason is that those kids failed to integrate into the society and therefore think of France as a sort of a stepmother country which they don't really like but live there anyways because it's worse if they go back to their homelands. Additionally the amount of freedom and wellfare they recieved has spoiled them to a degree where they want everything served to them on a golden platter. They seem to think that the only reason why most of them don't have all the benefits that indigenous population has is because they're minorities, and not because they're too lazy to find a job or go to school. It's not the fault of France they failed to integrate, but theirs own. The only fault that french state made was being too loose on the immigration procedures. They don't like the country they came from, but are on the other hand working as hard as they can on turning their new homeland into an exact replica of the old one.
Ultimately what should be done now as a first order of business is to either shoot at them or to throw them in a jail for a long long time. A parallel can be drawn with english hooligans who were rampaging around and burning stuff after every soccer match. That went on until Margaret Thacher installed her harsh laws against them, and lo and behold, after a few unlucky ones were sentenced to 10 years of prison they all became as tame as castrated bunnies.
As for western prejudices against muslims and arabs, well, it's hardly that they do anything to make them go away. On the contrary, a whole lot of them just confirm them. Why is it the arab immigrants that have rioted? Why isn't, say, hotsweetbabydol going around burning cars every night demanding that cheese be put out of cheesburgers and its amount in the traditional french cuisine be reduced because most asians are lactose intolerant and therefore feel opressed in restaurants? Were there some special laws separating african and middle eastern immigrants from european, asian, and american immigrants that we're all unaware of? Why aren't there angry jews burning schools demanding that a great synagogue be built in place of the Eiffel tower? Why aren't buddhists planting bombs on subways? Why aren't chinese demanding that their script is learned at schools instead of alphabet?
Granted that this doesn't apply to all the arabs and muslims, but whether you like it or not, the mentioned problems are significantly more prevalent in that specific group of people. |
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| Fir3start3r |
Yet another article pointing to France's welfare system being the root cause...
| quote: |
Why Immigrants Don't Riot Here
France's rigid economic system sustains privilege and inspires resentment.
BY JOEL KOTKIN
Tuesday, November 8, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST
The French political response to the continuing riots has focused most on the need for more multicultural "understanding" of, and public spending on, the disenchanted mass in the country's grim banlieues (suburbs). What has been largely ignored has been the role of France's economic system in contributing to the current crisis. State-directed capitalism may seem ideal for American admirers such as Jeremy Rifkin, author of "The European Dream," and others on the left. Yet it is precisely this highly structured and increasingly infracted economic system that has so limited opportunities for immigrants and their children. In a country where short workweeks and early retirement are sacred, there is little emphasis on creating new jobs and even less on grass-roots entrepreneurial activity.
Since the '70s, America has created 57 million new jobs, compared with just four million in Europe (with most of those jobs in government). In France and much of Western Europe, the economic system is weighted toward the already employed (the overwhelming majority native-born whites) and the growing mass of retirees. Those ensconced in state and corporate employment enjoy short weeks, early and well-funded retirement and first dibs on the public purse. So although the retirement of large numbers of workers should be opening up new job opportunities, unemployment among the young has been rising: In France, joblessness among workers in their 20s exceeds 20%, twice the overall national rate. In immigrant banlieues, where the population is much younger, average unemployment reaches 40%, and higher among the young.
To make matters worse, the elaborate French welfare state--government spending accounts for roughly half of GDP compared with 36% in the U.S.--also forces high tax burdens on younger workers lucky enough to have a job, largely to pay for an escalating number of pensioners and benefit recipients. In this system, the incentives are to take it easy, live well and then retire. The bloat of privileged aging blocks out opportunity for the young.
Luckily, better-educated young Frenchmen and other Continental Europeans can opt out of the system by emigrating to more open economies in Ireland, the U.K. and, particularly, the U.S. This is clearly true in technological fields, where Europe's best brains leave in droves. Some 400,000 European Union science graduates currently reside in the U.S. Barely one in seven, according to a recent poll, intends to return. Driven by the ambitious young, European immigration to the U.S. jumped by 16% during the '90s. Visa applications dropped after 9/11, but then increased last year by 10%. The total number of Europe-born immigrants increased by roughly 700,000 during the last three years, with a heavy inflow from the former Soviet Union, the former Yugoslavia, and Romania--as well as France. These new immigrants have been particularly drawn to the metropolitan centers of California, Florida and New York.
The Big Apple offers a lesson for France. An analysis of recent census numbers indicates that immigrants to New York are the biggest contributors to the net growth of educated young people in the city. Without the disproportionate contributions of young European immigrants, New York would have suffered a net outflow of educated people under 35 in the late '90s. Overall, there are now 500,000 New York residents who were born in Europe (not to mention the numerous non-European immigrants who live, and prosper, in the city).
Contrast this with Paris, where the central city is largely off-limits to immigrants, in some ways due to the dirigiste planning that so many professional American urbanists find appealing. Since Napoleon III rebuilt Paris, uprooting many existing working-class communities, the intention of the French elites has been to preserve the central parts of the city--often with massive public investment--for the affluent. This has consigned the proletariat, first white and now increasingly Muslim, to the proximate suburbs--into what some French sociologists call "territorial stigma." In these communities, immigrants are effectively isolated from the overpriced, elegant central core and the ever-expanding outer suburban grand couronne. The outer suburbs, usually not on the maps of tourists and new urbanist sojourners, now are home to a growing percentage of French middle-class families, and are the locale for many high-tech companies and business service firms.
The contrast with America's immigrants, including those from developing countries, could not be more dramatic, both in geographic and economic terms. The U.S. still faces great problems with a portion of blacks and American Indians. But for the most part immigrants, white and nonwhite, have been making considerable progress. Particularly telling, immigrant business ownership has been surging far faster than among native-born Americans. Ironically, some of the highest rates for ethnic entrepreneurship in the U.S. belong to Muslim immigrants, along with Russians, Indians, Israelis and Koreans.
Perhaps nothing confirms immigrant upward mobility more than the fact that the majority have joined the white middle class in the suburbs--a geography properly associated here mostly with upward mobility. These newcomers and their businesses have carved out a powerful presence in suburban areas that now count among the nation's most diverse regions. Prime examples include what demographer Bill Frey calls "melting pot suburbs": the San Gabriel Valley east of Los Angeles; Arlington County, Va.; Essex County, N.J.; and Fort Bend County in suburban Houston. The connection between this spreading geography and immigrant opportunity is not coincidental. Like other Americans, immigrants often dramatically improve their quality of life and economic prospects by moving out to less dense, faster growing areas. They can also take advantage of more business-friendly government. Perhaps the most extreme case is Houston, a low-cost, low-tax haven where immigrant entrepreneurship has exploded in recent decades. Much of this has taken place in the city itself. Looser regulations and a lack of zoning lower land and rental costs, providing opportunities to build businesses and acquire property.
It is almost inconceivable to see such flowerings of ethnic entrepreneurship in Continental Europe. Economic and regulatory policy plays a central role in stifling enterprise. Heavy-handed central planning tends to make property markets expensive and difficult to penetrate. Add to this an overall regulatory regime that makes it hard for small business to start or expand, and you have a recipe for economic stagnation and social turmoil. What would help France most now would be to stimulate economic growth and lessen onerous regulation. Most critically, this would also open up entrepreneurial and employment opportunity for those now suffering more of a nightmare of closed options than anything resembling a European dream.
Mr. Kotkin, Irvine Senior Fellow at the New America Foundation, is the author of "The City: A Global History" (Modern Library, 2005).
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Btw. taken from a logical point of view, your conjecture suffers from a flaw: If news media is really the cause of anti-muslim feelings - how did the news media turn anti-muslim then?
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| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
And this ignorance/prejudice is a result of media propoganda and the residue of anti-Mulism/anti-Arab sentiment which finds it's roots in the crusades and never entirely left the culture. |
It been in the culture for a long time. It was only after the civil rights movement that people became much more tolerant and a lot less prejudiced. It's already been in the collective subcious (for lack of a better term).
And it's not just the news media, it's in movies and entertainment too. Nowadawys it's alot more subtle because of:
| quote: |
It was only after the civil rights movement that people became much more tolerant and a lot less prejudiced. |
It's not PC or socially accepted anymore which is why even some people who feel a certain way don't usually vocalize their opinon, and when they do, it's usually alot more subtle.
EDIT: A minor example that just came to mind: Dirka Dirka Muhammad Jihad doesn't exactly help now does it?
EDIT: And just to help my case, these are the words of a non-Mulism westerner:
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The demonization of Islam by the West has a long history, stretching back to the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century...Islam has often been misunderstood in the West, but this splendid documentary helps to set the record straight. --Simon Leake
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tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Da Book Recommendations Thread inda Houze.. |
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| trancaholic |
shaolin: Two points: First, as I've stated a few times already, I consider the rioters stupid and destructive first, and French, muslim, immigrants, poor, uneducated, etc. second. The people torching buses and throwing rocks might claim membership of some larger community, but the fact of the matter is that they are only a small part of that community and must be considered as defective or deviant. I won't be having problems sleeping if these people are taken out by the military.
Second, you keep trying to thread-jack this into a discussion on the plight of muslims (and quoting me everytime), so I'll just give my 2c on that topic, but note that this discussion does not change my position on the rioters.
While I agree that muslims are getting bad press, I have a hard time seeing this as a conspiracy against muslims. They do get good press sometimes too. For instance, in relation to the riots, some muslim community issued a fatwa on the riots (which I consider a good thing) and it was widely reported.
However, the bad press far outweigh the good press - but take a step back and see if that's not the case for practically every group that gets press: Bush is certainly getting more than his share of bad press. Same with the CIA, the US military in Iraq, the EU, the government of France, Russia, fundie christians and so forth. Scandals sell newspapers, so if you're in the news, a priori there's a good chance that it's because you've messed up.
But let's turn it around: What news involving muslims do you feel that the western press has neglected to report on? |
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| shaolin_Z |
@ Trancaholic: My intent wasn't to hijack the thread or defend the rioters actions, I was simply trying to point out that:
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
It's not like they're being opressed or discriminated against. |
isn't true.
And believe me, Muslims doing ed up /acting like morons pisses me off just as much as you guys, since it gives all Muslims a bad name (and ofcourse what they're doing is wrong).
I think it's unfair to blame the state of affairs entirely on these morons (although I still consider it their responsibility to exert self control and find civil means of resolving their issues/expressing their discontent/whatever). I was trying to shed some light on why they're acting like morons, not defending them.
And that was really about it. |
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| TranceEuphoria |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
As for western prejudices against muslims and arabs, well, it's hardly that they do anything to make them go away. On the contrary, a whole lot of them just confirm them. Why is it the arab immigrants that have rioted? Why isn't, say, hotsweetbabydol going around burning cars every night demanding that cheese be put out of cheesburgers and its amount in the traditional french cuisine be reduced because most asians are lactose intolerant and therefore feel opressed in restaurants? Were there some special laws separating african and middle eastern immigrants from european, asian, and american immigrants that we're all unaware of? Why aren't there angry jews burning schools demanding that a great synagogue be built in place of the Eiffel tower? Why aren't buddhists planting bombs on subways? Why aren't chinese demanding that their script is learned at schools instead of alphabet?
Granted that this doesn't apply to all the arabs and muslims, but whether you like it or not, the mentioned problems are significantly more prevalent in that specific group of people. |
i don't think that the muslim religion plays a major role in this kind of conflict. do you remember the violence in LA in 1992? The majority of the people involved where christians. And, who says that only immigrants are involved in the violence in france? i read in the newspaper that also non immigrants are involved, so don't blame only the the immigrants. the problem is that all people in these suburbs, no matter if immigrant or not (most of them are immigrants for sure), faced a lot of disadvantages in their lifes.
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| h0tsweetbabyd0l |
new measure from our minister nicolas sarkozy who decided that all the non residents who took part in the riots and undermine law and order will be evicted from french territory and will be sent to their mother's countries
good measure !:o |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l
new measure from our minister nicolas sarkozy who decided that all the non residents who took part in the riots and undermine law and order will be evicted from french territory and will be sent to their mother's countries
good measure !:o |
Wow...is that a backbone I see?
Good job! The way it should be; if you can't act like a citizen of the country you moved to, get the hell out.
I wouldn't expect anything different in my country that's for sure! |
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