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Dumb things some Americans say about Canada (pg. 6)
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| naesean3 |
Interesting thread.......
Between Diginut and Shamen DJ
Both have brought up/discussed very real concerns and both debates on this subject contain truths and some validity - while some contain personal theories and emotional attachments to what they "percieve as their own truths". And there lies the problem with these debates.
When people are passionate about their views - they tend to make it known - it is what people judge their characters by - like a religion.
Everyone has their own personal belief system on a myriad of levels from politics, religion, social issues to how the take their coffee.
And in some fairness towards some others - Aaron - you may have a bit more debating experience than Shamen DJ - and have the ability to put your thoughts into better sequence order and such - does that make you more intelligent overall - who knows??? For everyone lacks experience and knowledge in lots of areas - some people do not delve so deeply into things as it is not of interest to them but those other people in other areas they excel in comparison.
When something is of "interest" to somebody they tend to absorb information more readily/easily and are able to make better decisions and arguements to back up their own viewpoints as to why they feel justified to have this "interest".
Same as we have a lot of self proclaimed know-it-alls on here about TRANCE music and music in general - very few would actually be called EXPERTS.
Musical passion inspires people on many different levels. Now this is my THEORY as I have always felt that my take on music was so different than most people I had encountered for the longest time. Whether it is mathmatical, tonal or emotional - the combinations of these factors are endless in what constitutes an endearing sound to one's ears - or NOISE to another's. Some people resonate to natural notes while others delight in the sharps and flats (as I personally delight in the latter). And this is purely an emotional/tonal thing. White keys = warmth/black keys = exotic sounds. To ME!
LOL!
Black keys/white keys = 2 distinctive sounds.........
black people/white people = 2 distinctive cultures as is being discused here. But when playing the keys together it can be quite harmonious and divine. As with the two cultures we can be beautiful together when we can get past our distinctiveness and live together in harmony. Mulattos for example - I have always found to be quite attractive for the fact that they encompass the best of both geneologies and when it works - SEXY HOT STUFF!!! LOL!!
But I digress.......some people kinda shoot their mouths off without thinking and it must frustrate you Aaron - which that is a valid feeling. You seem to have made it one of your passions to be informed on certain ideologies and of course dislike assumptive and unsubstaniated postings - so you feel justified to correct others when you see their incorrectness.
That is all fine - but it is the name-calling which sometimes you do start that sets people off. And since this is not the CORe - people take you VERY seriously. You have a handicapped/validity problem here then as a debater. You want to educate people with your informed truths and to respect and believe you but at the same time offending people with comments of "are you retarded? - you are an idiot?" which tends to create an environment of hostility without being personally attacked in the first place - which does not help stating your case as you are trying to do by correcting another person posts.
Like being beaten as a child and then being told "I love you??" by the one who administered the beats - so contradictory and confusing.
And of course - with the male mentality often times when threatened -logic debate flies out the window and ego takes over with fists of fury.
I can understand and respect both Shamen DJ and Diginuts positions. I have to - for a couple reasons.....
They are both entitled to their own opinions.
We have Diginut who is methodical and literate with debating experience which therefore lends credibility to his statements almost by default.
We have Shamen DJ who lives in the realm of what is being discussed (USA) and has a hands-on direct view of various things that can only stand to be taken as truth because it DIRECTLY effects him on a daily basis and seeing is believing.
You can read a book on Egypt and make yourself a knowledgable expert on certain facts without stepping a foot into the country this is true.
But going to visit there and experiencing it in a sensory type environment - your knowledge becomes deeper and the understanding just as knowledgable but in a totally different way.
This is how we learn - a combination of sensory (emotional/irrational) and tangible (unemotional/rational).
It is an interesting thread in the fact that some people's smugness tends to create such heated debates (on both sides) - but then again if you don't fight for what you believe - then who is gonna do it for you????
It is no secret that Diginut has offended many over the years on these boards and others I am sure that we have no clue about - but that is too bad for he is quite smart and because of this - may have the inability for empathy at times (this is quite common I am afraid with intellects).
For I can't hold him to be a racist/hurtful person intentionally - I am assuming it then stems from social interactional areas. And even that assumption theory may have some arguable semantics - but it seems to me the only reason for these debates and why they turn ugly.
And for Shamen DJ - he has made very few comparability posts for me to make as an informed decision on his character as Diginuts - but he has displayed some great compassion of human spirit and triumphs over obstacles that some people take for granted. Though pain still resonates in some of his words - only time and confidence will solidify his own convictions.
But what the do I know anyways right?
true enough - but they both have the right to our respect either way automatically as human beings and fellow tranceaddicts - no?
'twas a long post - but I felt I had to give "Kudos" to both sides for their efforts - and make some sense to those who look at these threads and believe what WE say - because some people reading aren't as intelligent/informed on some of these issues and do take some of what we say as seriously the truth - because we have some common interests on these forums (the only reason why we are here to begin with) and want to believe each other automatically since most of us do consider one another a friend and because of this are trusting towards one another.
So keep up the debates - they are enjoyable and informative but please keep in mind that PERSONAL verbal attacks and negativity makes them unbearable at times and sad to endure.
Thanks for reading!
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| daves |
| it can be dangerous to always only approach things from a logical standpoint... logic doesn't always lend itself well to human needs. |
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| DigiNut |
Sorry Sean, but I'm not the one who starts up with the schoolyard tactics hurling around personal insults. Ever. Period. EOD.
Simply put, certain people in here have no self-control and lash out at others whenever their opinions are challenged. Frankly, I don't really give a flying if I offend them - but I still present logical arguments, not personal insults.
And as for this:
| quote: | | For I can't hold him to be a racist/hurtful person intentionally - I am assuming it then stems from social interactional areas. |
Don't give me that crap. I'm not a racist intentionally or unintentionally and there is nothing that "stems from social interactional areas", whatever that even is. Thanks very much but if I want a shrink, I'll see a shrink.
How can you go on and on about the "compassion" he shows when almost every sentence coming from him in this thread has been a vicious diatribe?
| quote: | Originally posted by daves
it can be dangerous to always only approach things from a logical standpoint... logic doesn't always lend itself well to human needs. |
It is dangerous to approach government policy from anything but a logical standpoint. Interpersonal relations can certainly be founded on emotions and intuition, but policy is best left to the people who can actually think things through and conclude what actually works. |
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| naesean3 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Sorry Sean, but I'm not the one who starts up with the schoolyard tactics hurling around personal insults. Ever. Period. EOD.
Simply put, certain people in here have no self-control and lash out at others whenever their opinions are challenged. Frankly, I don't really give a flying if I offend them - but I still present logical arguments, not personal insults.
And as for this:
Don't give me that crap. I'm not a racist intentionally or unintentionally and there is nothing that "stems from social interactional areas", whatever that even is. Thanks very much but if I want a shrink, I'll see a shrink.
How can you go on and on about the "compassion" he shows when almost every sentence coming from him in this thread has been a vicious diatribe?
It is dangerous to approach government policy from anything but a logical standpoint. Interpersonal relations can certainly be founded on emotions and intuition, but policy is best left to the people who can actually think things through and conclude what actually works. |
again - semantics are being argued I gave you both plenty of leeway for why you post what you post.
You have commented with insults in some posts people have made - because you read them and they instigated something in you to do so - you know you have.
And that racist comment was more on the fact that you downplay people's right to harbour their own personal feelings (your lack of empathy) on their plights as people living in a multicultural society when certain people seem to have the control of what is considered normal and set the tone for all others and are able to be secure from such lofty EGOISMS.
My social interactional comment was not meant for you to seek a shrink - but stating that it does come across that way to others. You have taken many a swipe at me in my previous posts and made hurtful comments and I have took it as maybe some of it was true and you are correct - and some maybe/definitely not true - but none-the-less keep it in mind as a basis for how others see me.
Again - comparable posts in the case of Shamen DJ - he has been offended by you personally and his posts reflect that.
You may have been offended intellectually - but that comes from a whole different place and you know that too......
I tried to be fair to the both of you - but still no thanks for anything positive right.....just bitching about the negative - what else is new.....
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| naesean3 |
a debatable way of looking at things........
FACT!
:stongue:
FICTION!
:nervous:
....draw your own conclusions.....it is your right......I know I have! |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
e) The Nazi party was the Socialist party, so yes, Adolf Hitler *was* a Socialist. That isn't what I said, though; I said that Stalin and the USSR were Socialists. (did you perhaps confuse the Soviets with the Germans?) |
Aaron, I have to correct you on this one. The Nazi Party was a modified Fascist party. While fascism does have many of the same trappings of socializm, particularly with regard to social welfare networks, it is very different in many ways. Fascism not only allows for but encourages private property rights. Rather then a command economy fascism employes a Corporatist economy that makes the state a stakeholder in industry along with labour and capital owners.... the economic policies are not dictated but rather they are negotiated and insentives are used rather then legislation to direct business (the current EU economic structure is very similar to this). Perhaps the most telling trapping of Corporatism (which is essential to fascism) being opposed to socialism is that unions are outlawed. Rather then private unions all unions are controled through a government ministry. Clearly socialism and fascism are not the same thing therefore the Nazis were not socialists.
Following the first great war Hitler was assigned to investigate socialist groups by the military. The actual goal was to collect information so the military could subvert them. During his investigations he stumbled upon the German Workers Party, which was believed to be a socialist party due to its name but was in fact a very right winged party with all the trappings of the Facista Party in Italy. Hitler fell in love with their ideological standpoints, particularly the nationalism, and ended up joining and eventually taking over the party. As they grew they realized that many who liked the social welfare part of socialism but not the economic policies were drawn to their party. They changed the name to the National Socialists in order to confuse socialists and draw them to their rallies hoping to convert them.
While their name suggests a socialist party they most certainly were not. IN FACT violance between Nazis and socialists was common place and the brown shirts were set up specifically to disrupt socialists that attempted to subvert Nazi Party rallies. If you read Mein Kampf you will note that Hitler identifies communism and socialism as the greatest evils facing European society and espouses that both must be destroyed.
Sorry Aaron, I usually enjoy your posts as they are often well thought out and usually based in fact but on this point you are way off and as a political scientist I cannot allow ideologies to be confused. |
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| yankeeBaby |
The only thing I have an issue with here is the fact that some people say that the poor should "budget" for health care. Does anyone have a clue how much that costs here?? Many middle class people, let alone poor, can't afford health insurance or care here. For the cheapest kind of insurance (that you really can only use for emergencies and then still have to pay a huge copay) is OVER $100 a month. the cheapest. And trust me when I tell you that this insurance is !!! Not even worth the $100....
:rolleyes:
If someone who is making minimum wage has to pay an extra $100 month, they are screwed, because the rent even in the ghettos here are around $500+.....for a studio. |
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| Shamen DJ's |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Boo hoo. In most other countries, these "poor" people would be out on the streets living in abject poverty and dying in the winter. You're criticizing Bush for not using other people's money to help heat their homes, when these people have food and shelter and would be considered well-off in most places?
It is not the federal government's responsibility to make health care more easily affordable. Many if not most of these "poor" families could easily afford health insurance but simply don't budget for it. And if not, perhaps these "poor" families should not have had children and would not have had children if it weren't for the promise of higher welfare cheques. It's the priorities of these families that are mixed up, not the government's.
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Point
#1) Your comments clearly show that American Conservatives are ( or pretend to be ) Christian only when their bashing gays. Jesus helped the poor. With values like that I really don't think too many Christians will be voting Republican next election. Most Americans now know Bush lied & that there is no such thing as a "Compassionate Conservative" in this country. His budget prooved it.
#2) What is the point of Republicans being anti-abortion, if ( going by your comments ) American Conservatives don't give a if children that are already born freeze to death, starve, & die of infectious diseases.
#3) You have really shown your ignorance on this forum. Most poor families DO work. A single mother in this area cannot raise a family in this area on minimum wage, no matter how much she makes. Alot of people are poor because they've lost jobs they've had for years, or live in rural communities that fell on hard times.
#4) If a child is born in poverty, appearently you DO blame the child. Even though I don't know you, this is proof you've lived a life of privilege.
#5) Your comments that poor families shouldn't have children. Just to show how hippocritical the Bush administration is, they do not support any sex education programs in this country unless they are abstinence only. Now, do you think anyone listens to that, including you. They also oppose foreign aid to African country for AIDS prevention if those programs include condoms, and family planning education. So that is proof that George Bush is encouraging poor families in Africa to have children, and then abandoning them.
#6) Aaron, sorry to bring you bad news, but in the State Election in Virginia a month ago, the Republicans lost in ALL urban & suburban districts. The Republican ran on bashing gays, latinos & the other candidate and photo ops with Bush. The Democratic elect ran on balanced budget, improving state highways, the previous Democratic Governors record,and having the best education system in the U.S.
Guess what - the democrats won by a large margin. May'be your on the wrong forum here, especially when the Republicans are about to permanently loose a historic state. Go save Virginia from Liberalism. Just after that election we seen many Republicans publically distance themselves from Bush & we see a split in the party beginning to form ( ex. Main Street Moderate Republicans, who are voting with the Democrats on many measures )
#7) Dick Cheney is pro- torture. Thank god we have some level headed people such as John McCain from Arizona in the Republican Party, to put him in his place.
#8) Diginut! You still haven't answered my question: If you love George Bush so much, do you think Canadians should be fighting in Iraq? Obviously Bush & Cheney think we should help him.
#9) Liberals believe in Justice for all - Communist DO NOT believe in that. Communist only believe in justice for privileged government officials, that makes them sound more like extremist conservatives.
Liberals believe in ownership, communist don't. I have never met a liberal that thinks that everyone should make the same wage, it just doesn't work. Society needs to maintain some level of competetiveness to keep production at a reasonable level.
#10)Many people in the far right in the U.S. want a State Religion just like most countries in the Middle East have.
#11) I feel sorry for you. You have clearly shown here that your extremist views blind you from reality.
#12) Many U.S. conservatives want to impose their moralities on everyone else, and control even what they do in their own bedrooms - that is called "fasciasm"
EVERYONE ELSE ON TRANCEADDICT!!!
With Diginuts views:
Would you vote him for Prime Minister???
Remember, he wants to dissolve Canada's healthcare system, because he thinks everyone should pay for their own. Your own plan will likely cost in excess of $300 a month, or your employer will have to pay for it.
* another thing! One reason Ford is going bankrupt in the U.S. is that they can't afford to pay employee health care, which is equal to $3 / hr in wages. The U.S. automakers spend more money on healthcare than they do on steel. Many other companies now that actually do give healthcare make you pay a percentage or half of it. Also many people in the U.S. buy their prescription drugs in Canada because they can't afford them in the U.S.
So again! Would you vote for Diginut??? |
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| Shamen DJ's |
Hey Diginut!
I have never felt the need to insult or name call anyone on Tranceaddict until you came along, insulting people left & right. You told IbizaGuy to crawl away & die somewhere, now no one can really be suprised he doesn't like you, I just feel bad for all the other people he offended.
Also, when you insulted his spelling - who the do you think you are? Mr. Tranceaddict Spelling Bee Nazi.
As for you, do you remember when you called me an idiot? You basically just gave me the right to call you anything & everything.
One thing Ive learned from learned from watching American politics is that Republicans ( especially Bushes right hand man Carl Rowe; and Rush Limbaugh ) are the masters of mudslinging & name calling. One reason Kerry lost the election is that he had too much class, and didn't attack back - especially when Bush cowardly & unpatriotically attacked his war record.
That offended me, especially since Bush skipped out of Vietnam in the National Guard, but now sends the current National Guard to get shot at in Iraq. Hippocracy again!!! |
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| Shamen DJ's |
| quote: | Originally posted by yankeeBaby
The only thing I have an issue with here is the fact that some people say that the poor should "budget" for health care. Does anyone have a clue how much that costs here?? Many middle class people, let alone poor, can't afford health insurance or care here. For the cheapest kind of insurance (that you really can only use for emergencies and then still have to pay a huge copay) is OVER $100 a month. the cheapest. And trust me when I tell you that this insurance is !!! Not even worth the $100....
:rolleyes:
If someone who is making minimum wage has to pay an extra $100 month, they are screwed, because the rent even in the ghettos here are around $500+.....for a studio. |
Since Diginut is such an expert on the U.S, I think he should live here for a year without his parents help. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shamen DJ's
#12) Many U.S. conservatives want to impose their moralities on everyone else, and control even what they do in their own bedrooms - that is called "fasciasm" |
No that would be called theocracy. Fascism is a political ideology calling for a corporatist economy, social welfare network, private property rights, societal rights over individual freedoms, and a strong central government. |
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| yankeeBaby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shamen DJ's
Since Diginut is such an expert on the U.S, I think he should live here for a year without his parents help. |
If one wants an exmaple:
I am in the middle/upper middle class, and I did not have health insurance for 2 years. Why? Because I had to pay $7,000 a year for school out of my pocket (out of the $35,000 it costs total which were covered by loans, etc). Rent was over $1,500 per month, per roomate. Add up the rest of the bills, transportation, books, food, etc. I had to make a decision (literally) whether I wanted to attend school and get an education or get health ceoverage. I chose to risk it because I figured that if I got a better job with my masters I could get health insurance (pending if I made it outta collage alive).
My school offered me insurance $2000 per year for emergencies only. That covered the initial fees of the hospital, but I had to still pay the majority of the bill when it came to me. My mother's insurance stopped covering me when I was 21. In order for me to have my own DECENT insurance it would have cost me about $400/month on top of my bills.
Now imagine someone who is poor trying to pay for that. |
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