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Men want say in unplanned pregnancy (pg. 5)
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| weymouth |
It has nothing to do with what is "fair" it has everything to do with what is logical. If a woman wants to have a child that is her choice, you can not prove in court that a man is unliable to pay for child support, it is consentual sex. It doesnt matter if the Dad doesnt want the child, it is still his child and he is obligated to pay child support. If we create a get out of jail free law in which the man has a way out of paying his child support than the entire child support system will collaspe. All men will just say, "I did not want the child, then I shouldnt have to pay for it." Then thousands more children will be living in poverty because the father has no responsibility.
I can see a slight argument for having the permission of the father during an abortion but it still is a woman's medical decision. The majority of woman would never tell the father about the aborted fetus as it is. The woman would have to test the baby's dna to find out the real father to get his permission. It creates more hoops and rings to jump through that is more expensive for both the patient and the medical industry with possible legal action against the mother from the father. |
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| tribu |
Yes, again, I understand that this is the current reality and im showing that this is a hope to change that. I am not advocating not taking responsibility for your child. I am advocating a stronger point for men to have when the decision to have/abort/adopt a child is made.
Again, read the article. This is not a get out of jail free card for men and pregnancies. They would be decided on a case by case basis and have a short staute of limitations.
No one seems to mind double standards when they work in their favor. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
In my mind, I do not care AT ALL what the situation is. If you CONSENTUALLY have sex with someone, you are taking the chance of anything happening in result of that.
Because YOU chose to take that chance, you should be responsible for those actions.
You know prior, that if a woman gets pregnant, she will have 100% choice in what happens. You inadvertantly accept these terms when you have sex.
If you decide to believe someone in whatever they say to you, or trust that an operation will keep you immune to biology, that is YOUR choice, and by making that choice, you are accepting all of the chances of that choice, whether you like them or not.
If you are all so hell bent in not having this happen, do not have sex. You know how it works, and if you are unable to accept the consequences of your own actions, then don't take those actions. |
ok how about this.
we're dating and before we ever have sex we discuss this topic and both agree that we don't want children.
we take it a step further and we actually write out a contract saying that in the event of a pregnancy, we agree to abort it. it's notarized by an attorney and everything.
one day in the future...something happens and the girl gets pregnant. despite what was written in the contract, she wants to have the baby. physically there is nothing that will possibly stop her from having it, but the man denies responsibility under the terms of their previously signed contract.
should the man be liable to the woman? |
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| tribu |
By the argument they're putting forth, abortion should be illegal as well. If you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex and if you do get pregnant, you should have kept your legs closed. When a woman accepts a penis inside her, doesn't she lose 50% of the right to her egg?
I know its a big personal health issue for women, but if you didn't want to have to make such a choice, again you shouldn't have had sex. I would be willing to disallow this case if women agreed to ban abortion, and I favor pro-choice, but first and foremost i favor rational laws. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by tribu
By the argument they're putting forth, abortion should be illegal as well. If you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex and if you do get pregnant, you should have kept your legs closed.
I know its a big personal health issue for women, but if you didn't want to have to make such a choice, again you shouldn't have had sex. I would be willing to disallow this case if women agreed to ban abortion, and I favor pro-choice, but first and foremost i favor rational laws. |
that is exactly true. it is the exact situation for a woman, yet we enable them that freedom. we're not saying you lose the freedom to choose if you can have the baby, we're just saying we should have the freedom of financial independence in certain situations. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorfiller
ok how about this.
we're dating and before we ever have sex we discuss this topic and both agree that we don't want children.
we take it a step further and we actually write out a contract saying that in the event of a pregnancy, we agree to abort it. it's notarized by an attorney and everything.
one day in the future...something happens and the girl gets pregnant. despite what was written in the contract, she wants to have the baby. physically there is nothing that will possibly stop her from having it, but the man denies responsibility under the terms of their previously signed contract.
should the man be liable to the woman? |
This one is hard. On one hand I think no, and on the other I think yes. I really don't know what I think is the right answer on this one. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
This one is hard. On one hand I think no, and on the other I think yes. I really don't know what I think is the right answer on this one. |
ok so atleast you could possibly see a situation where under those certain circumstances it could be possible right? not yes or no...but possible... |
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| tribu |
| One thing I think we all can agree on is that it sucks that there are people of both sexes who would exploit pregnancy or leave their mate alone with the responsibility of child care. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by tribu
By the argument they're putting forth, abortion should be illegal as well. If you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex and if you do get pregnant, you should have kept your legs closed. When a woman accepts a penis inside her, doesn't she lose 50% of the right to her egg?
I know its a big personal health issue for women, but if you didn't want to have to make such a choice, again you shouldn't have had sex. I would be willing to disallow this case if women agreed to ban abortion, and I favor pro-choice, but first and foremost i favor rational laws. |
I agree with you on this. I do not think that abortion should be an option in the case that a woman who consentually had sex had gotten pregnant. I think it is too damn bad for her.
I think abortion should only be offered to victims of rape, and women who are in physical danger in result of birth.
But how are we able to regulate this?
Moreso, with your idea, how are the courts going to know who is lying, who isn't lying, and what is right and what is wrong?
They can't. It is impossible.
So it comes back to the basics. You have sex, you are responsible. If a baby comes of it, you should pay your debts. If not, well great for you. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by tribu
One thing I think we all can agree on is that it sucks that there are people of both sexes who would exploit pregnancy or leave their mate alone with the responsibility of child care. |
Agreed. |
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| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorfiller
a similar situation could arise with a woman. say i'm dating a girl for a long time. we've had sex in the past, but she tells me she is going to get her tubes tied. we have sex after she had this supposed operation...but in actuality, she lied to me because she wants to get married and thinks the child will be leverage to get me to pop the question. is that a fair situation? |
I really, really liked that scenario. The sad thing is, it probably happens quite often. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Moreso, with your idea, how are the courts going to know who is lying, who isn't lying, and what is right and what is wrong?
They can't. It is impossible.
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ah but in the instance i just suggested with the contract, there is clearly a way to tell what has taken place. the woman has changed her mind and breached the contract...that's clear.
but the way the laws are written now...despite that the man would probably still be liable...and so really the only quesetion is...
is that fair?
and the answer is of course not.
and that's why there needs to be some kind of change to the law for extreme circumstances. that's all we're saying.
just as you said with abortion. only under extreme circumstances do you agree it should be allowed...and that's all we're saying with this situation. |
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