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Fl users & ex-FLusers (pg. 4)
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| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Thois
Perhaps somebody who has both Cubase and FL can export the same sounds, so we can compare them. |
And whoever does, remember that C5 in FL is *not* C5 in Cubase. :grin: |
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| Four_On_Four-er |
| quote: | Originally posted by cybernetica
Thank you for clarifying things a little. I was never thinking youre an ass or anything. I get your point, and its a good one. Honestly, I dont understand about the coding background and I doubt I ever will... I dont think I can somehow discuss this topic on that level. I however have no proof for my statement, its just what my ears keep telling me...
As you can see, there are quite a few people like me and jahnlay who got this impression so I think its not all wrong to say "Cubase sounds better than FL"... So I thought a little about this, because something must be causing that slight difference... now I think it might not be FL's mixer but the renderer maybe? Somewhere "between sequencer and wav file" there must be a difference, because since I think I can trust my ears and those of other experienced producers enough to tell that the result sounds different.
You see, I cant provide much of a fundament for a solid argument. Those are just feelings and subjective impressions :p |
I simply downloaded a demo of CUbase a long time ago, but I discarded it as I was in a transition of location -- and forgot about it really cuz I didn't take the time to learn how to mix in Cubase.
However, Now you've got me wondering. As far as the mp3 rendering, FL's engine is prolly a little different than Cubase's. When it comes to mp3 everything is subjective from one player to another, and from one encoder to another. FOr instance... I used to think that FLStudio's mp3 renderer was absolutely terrible! This changed when I STOPPED USING Windows Media Player, and changed to winamp. Windows Media Player makes any mp3 sound like it's being played in a reverberated box with a bass-muddying plugin (with a random clipping algorythm). Once I switched to winamp, FL's mixer didn't sound as different from it's rendering output (I still don't know why my ears tell me this).
This just goes to show you the gray area between sequencers and player -- how much more between sequencers and other sequencers with players being our scope? Mp3 isn't a standardized item like .wav -- it's compressed data that's left open to interpretation everywhere.
Cubase may have a better renderer... but I have no way of testing that hypothesis.
I'm not sure how much Microsoft is making on that bass-muddying plugin for their WMP, but it's obviously not something they decided to convert to the VST market. |
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| Centra Spike |
I did a simple test comparing FLS 4 and Logic 5:
I used SF to generate a 5 second sine sweep from 0.1-22050Hz. Opened the wave in logic and exported, and did the same in FLS. In Sound Forge I mixed them (inverted) with the original sweep, and they both cancelled perfectly. Now, maybe this would change if the file was higher quality (they were all 44100/16), or maybe there is a better way to test this, but there ya go. |
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| DJ Shibby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Centra Spike
I did a simple test comparing FLS 4 and Logic 5:
I used SF to generate a 5 second sine sweep from 0.1-22050Hz. Opened the wave in logic and exported, and did the same in FLS. In Sound Forge I mixed them (inverted) with the original sweep, and they both cancelled perfectly. Now, maybe this would change if the file was higher quality (they were all 44100/16), or maybe there is a better way to test this, but there ya go. |
Cheers. =) |
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| Thois |
| Another myth busted |
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| IDarkISwordI |
Hasnt this debate raged before? Seriously now people. Can we finally agree that people have different preferences for what they use to create music. Its like driving a car... Some cars come with different features but in the end, the same result happens, you get to your destination. Why is this hard to understand. Just because an interface is different doesnt change the output, just the way you go about creating music. Multi-trackers suck ass in my opinion, but thats just my opinion because my brain doesnt necessarily follow the same pattern as someone who loves working with a multitracker. Differences in preferences, nothing more.
Cheers,
Zac |
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| Four_On_Four-er |
Just goes to show you... the real problem with FLStudio is it's availability to the lay-man (like myself). FLStudio is cheap, and therefore instantly accessable. The lay-man isn't going to use it to it's full potential. That's the true sourness in Jahnlay's ears.
Stick-shift or automatic... the car can still be used. |
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| jahnlay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Centra Spike
I did a simple test comparing FLS 4 and Logic 5:
I used SF to generate a 5 second sine sweep from 0.1-22050Hz. Opened the wave in logic and exported, and did the same in FLS. In Sound Forge I mixed them (inverted) with the original sweep, and they both cancelled perfectly. Now, maybe this would change if the file was higher quality (they were all 44100/16), or maybe there is a better way to test this, but there ya go. |
Not exactly a proper test, is it. A good test would involve multiple tracks from different vsts across both platforms in 44100/16 bit.
| quote: | | Just goes to show you... the real problem with FLStudio is it's availability to the lay-man (like myself). FLStudio is cheap, and therefore instantly accessable. The lay-man isn't going to use it to it's full potential. That's the true sourness in Jahnlay's ears. |
I didn't get personal with you, so stop doing it to me. Use whatever you want, and when you grow up you'll still be nowhere with your music because it sounds like isht. |
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| Centra Spike |
| quote: | Originally posted by jahnlay
Not exactly a proper test, is it. A good test would involve multiple tracks from different vsts across both platforms in 44100/16 bit. |
Well it proves that theres nothing wrong with the rendering itself.. or do you know something I don't?
You think the mixer/vst wrapper/summing bus are destructive?
I tried the same thing with a synth, and it wouldn't cancel exactly but that could be the synth itself or slight volume differences, it's harder doing this with synths.
If I made some files using the same patches, you think you could tell which were done in FLS and which were done in Logic? Of course I would have to render them again in SF to remove the loop point FLS adds to wavs (or is there a way to stop that happening, it's been a while since I last used it) and maybe do slight random volume changes to the files, or do you have a problem with that? |
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| Derivative |
Irrelevant. Digital audio is digital audio. Provided you bounce at the same bit depth and sample rate and both sounds have equal amount of pre and post gain applied - both will be identical. Thats one of the great perks of digital - You can copy a 16 bit 44.1 khz wave file from your HD to a CD and rip it back to your HD at 16 bit/44.1 khz - its the same sound comprised of the same number of bits and the same number of samples. In the end, all you are doing is copying a load of 1s and 0s. There is nothing to get wrong and no way of increasing or decreasing the 'quality' of that sound unless you add further processing.
Some people can be fooled into thinking FL has poor sound 'quality' but it does not. It does what every other DAW does. Only its meters are 6 dB off the mark and if you mix off them, then you are effectively mixing with a peak level of -6 dB. A difference of 6 dB is very noticeable and the human brain is very easily tricked like that.
Given 2 identical digital sounds with the exact same amount of pre gain but 1 sound has +3 dB of post gain applied, the other has 0 dB of post gain applied. Most people will pick the louder sound as being 'better.' I know this and it still fools me all the time - sometimes I just reach for the compressor and the post gain fools me into thinking the compression applied is making the sound tonally better when really, its the hotter output thats convincing me it sounds better. The compressor itself is just squashing the dynamic range of the sound and only after coming back later do I realise: 'oh - it sounds rubbish. I've over compressed it.' |
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| Four_On_Four-er |
| quote: | Originally posted by jahnlay
I didn't get personal with you, so stop doing it to me. Use whatever you want, and when you grow up you'll still be nowhere with your music because it sounds like isht. |
I apologize for my tone... music-wise I am simply a hobbiest, nothing more. However, I wasn't trying to put you down, or your professional background -- rather, I was arguing a hypothesis that was bluntly stated.
Maybe my music does sount like "isht" -- but that's because I've only been doing this for a couple of years on a limited budget and timeframe. I'm not going to be jumping to conclussions by pointing fingers at my tools. |
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