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Dutch seek ban on burqas in public
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| St_Andrew |
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/e...s.ap/index.html
| quote: | Dutch seek ban on burqas in public
POSTED: 1945 GMT (0345 HKT), November 17, 2006
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The Dutch government, facing re-election next week, said Friday it plans to draw up legislation "as soon as possible" banning the head-to-toe garment known as burqas and other clothing that covers the entire face in public places.
The announcement puts the Netherlands, once considered one of Europe's most welcoming nations for immigrants and asylum seekers, at the forefront of a general European hardening of attitudes toward Muslim minorities.
"The Cabinet finds it undesirable that face-covering clothing -- including the burqa -- is worn in public places for reasons of public order, security and protection of citizens," Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk said in a statement.
"From a security standpoint, people should always be recognizable and from the standpoint of integration, we think people should be able to communicate with one another," Verdonk told national broadcaster NOS.
Basing the order on security concerns apparently was intended to respond to warnings that outlawing clothing like the burqa, worn by some Muslim women, could violate the constitutional guarantee against religious discrimination.
The main Dutch Muslim organization CMO has been critical of any possible ban. The idea was "an overreaction to a very marginal problem" because hardly any Dutch women wear burqas anyway, said Ayhan Tonca of the CMO. "It's just ridiculous."
"This is a big law for a small problem," he said. Tonca estimated that as few as 30 women in the Netherlands wear a burqa and said the proposed law could be unconstitutional if it is interpreted as targeting Muslims.
He also said that the security argument did not stand up.
"I do not think people who have bad things in their minds would wear a burqa," he said.
In the past, a majority of the Dutch parliament has said it would approve a ban on burqas, but opinion polls in advance of national elections on November 22 suggest a shift away from that position, and it is unclear if a majority in the new parliament would still back the government-proposed ban.
Amsterdam's mayor, Job Cohen, of the opposition Labor party, said he would like to see burqas disappear, though he did not advocate a ban.
"From a viewpoint of integration and communication, naturally it's very bad," he told reporters. "You can't speak with each other if you can't see each other, so in that sense, I'd say myself the less (it's worn), the better."
The issue has resonance throughout Europe, Former British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw recently caused a stir by saying he wants Muslim women to abandon the full-face veil -- a view endorsed by Prime Minister Tony Blair. In France, the center-right's leading presidential candidate Nicolas Sarkozy has increasingly been adopting some of the rhetoric of the extreme-right.
Germany, which also has a large Muslim immigrant community, has a law banning teachers in public schools from wearing head scarves, but no burqa ban.
In Holland, policies associated with the nationalist fringe in 2002 have been co-opted by the center: holding asylum-seekers in detention centers, more muscle for the police and intelligence services, and visa examinations that require would-be immigrants to watch videos of homosexuals kissing and of topless women on the beach. Everyone must learn to speak Dutch, and Muslim clerics must mind what they say in their Friday sermons for fear of deportation.
The Netherlands is deeply divided over moves by the government to stem the tide of new arrivals and compel immigrants to assimilate into Dutch society. The issue was given added urgency with the 2004 slaying of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a Muslim fanatic and the failed attempt to expel a Somali-born critic of Islam.
Around 1 million Muslims live in the Netherlands, about 6 percent of the population of 16 million.
After France banned the wearing of head scarves in public schools, the Dutch government decided to leave that question up to individual schools. Most allow head scarves.
The city of Utrecht has cut some welfare benefits to unemployed women who insist on wearing burqas to job interviews. The city claimed the women were using the burqa to avoid working, since they knew they would not be hired. |
I don't even know where to start, its... so... wrong! |
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| venomX |
Why? I think it has to be done eventually. People segregating themselves makes cultural integration impossible. It is the dutch's country anyways, if they want to use a burqa they can go back to their own country. Accepting another person's culture should not tally changing one's own culture. And the longer these people are allowed to be "different" and segregate, the longer there will be tensions. Yes, they probably don't feel as safe and invisible in culture as they do with their burqas on, but seriously, they better learn to adapt, or go back to where they came from. I understand it's a tricky issue, but somewhere one has to draw the line. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by venomX
Why? I think it has to be done eventually. People segregating themselves makes cultural integration impossible. It is the dutch's country anyways, if they want to use a burqa they can go back to their own country. Accepting another person's culture should not tally changing one's own culture. And the longer these people are allowed to be "different" and segregate, the longer there will be tensions. Yes, they probably don't feel as safe and invisible in culture as they do with their burqas on, but seriously, they better learn to adapt, or go back to where they came from. I understand it's a tricky issue, but somewhere one has to draw the line. |
People choose to be "segregated" in all kinds of ways, I don't see why this is worse than any other? Plus the Netherlands is supposed to be a free country, not a country like Saudi Arabia where people are told how to be dressed. |
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| Clovis |
| Taking choices away from the individual = bad |
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| Fir3start3r |
Wasn't there something like this posted before? :conf:
Meh...I'll just say the same thing about it here then...
Sure, go ahead and wear what you want, it is a free country however, when dealing with authority and places where they ask for it to be removed (ie.banks), there better be obedience to the law of the land. |
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| Purple |
| This is same like Taliban law.. they force you to wear it, and this will force you to not wear it. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
This is same like Taliban law.. they force you to wear it, and this will force you to not wear it. |
Huh?
The two aren't even close except in that twisted assumption.
One is based in religious dogma, the other by government law.
Separation of State and Religion remember?
Nice try... |
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| Marc Summers |
| Whenever I hear about anti-Islamic movements in Europe, I'm always directed to the Netherlands. :o |
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| josh4 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Huh?
The two aren't even close except in that twisted assumption.
One is based in religious dogma, the other by government law.
Separation of State and Religion remember?
Nice try... |
Actually Purple hit the nail on the head. I don't see much difference. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Wasn't there something like this posted before? :conf: |
I think that was about not wearing head scarves if you wanted to receive unemployment benefits... Which is almost as insane.
| quote: | Meh...I'll just say the same thing about it here then...
Sure, go ahead and wear what you want, it is a free country however, when dealing with authority and places where they ask for it to be removed (ie.banks), there better be obedience to the law of the land. |
Well in banks its rather that you can't cover your head, which makes sense for security reasons, however a law like this has nothing to do with that.
| quote: | One is based in religious dogma, the other by government law.
Separation of State and Religion remember? |
It doesn't make it better does it? If the Talibans were democratically elected, would that make their laws less oppressive? |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
It doesn't make it better does it? If the Talibans were democratically elected, would that make their laws less oppressive? |
and what are the chances of that? :conf: |
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| Marc Summers |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Huh?
The two aren't even close except in that twisted assumption.
One is based in religious dogma, the other by government law.
Separation of State and Religion remember?
Nice try... |
Most of the veils are cultural rather than religious. Which most people do not understand. Way before Islam was a part of Mesopotamian life, women wore veils to cover their hair because that was considered the most beatiful part on the female body. Mohammad took this cultural aspect and used it to push modesty.
| quote: | | Third, this verse also ordered the believing women not to show their Zeenah, adornments except for what naturally may be shown. |
Source
This is hardly a "Muslim" thing, which the netherlands needs to understand. To take away the right to wear burqas is stripping the women of their cultural identity, and I don't think that is right. |
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