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"I'm obsessed with internet pornography.." (pg. 7)
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| Krypton |
| How can you detect something from outside of our universe? The scientists know universes can't make contact. You seem to equate belief in the supernatural with an unbelief in empirical science. That's a false assumption. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
Insofar as a theory has empirical and testable content, or at least strives to have such, it is scientific.
Not being scientific doesn't necessarily make a belief worthless or bad. Religious beliefs are typically bad for reasons other than that. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
Physicists seek empirical confirmation for their ideas. Spirit-believers, except the really wild-eyed among them like Pentecostals, deny that empirical inquiry is even relevant to their ideas.
So I'm not even sure why you mentioned M-theory in the first place. |
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| Arbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
There is nothing wrong with religion and beliefs. It's an ugly world - always has been - so it's easy to see why people want to believe in some higher being that will deliver them from this place if they follow arbitrary guidelines(???). However, there is something very wrong when people try to shove their ed up sense of ancient morality down your throat and try to convince you that you are an evil creature because you have violated some senseless law that was, for all you know, re-written into history by a lying politician or priest so that he could control his flock of peasants and has been unquestionably followed by the descended flock ever since.
It's not God that sucks. It's not the religion that sucks. It's the idiot people. |
I really don't agree. The world consists of roughly equal parts ugliness and beauty - necessarily so because the concepts are interpreted relatively. Of course it is natural to find displeasure in the ugly, but it would be wise to still appreciate the role it plays in shaping our ability to appreciate the beautiful.
Personally I'm quite satisfied with the world overall. Are there many aspects of it I would prefer to change? Certainly. But that, too, is a blessing of sorts. To be totally content with every aspect of one's world is a rather stagnant existence - undesirable, if you ask me, compared with experiencing the broad spectrum of the favorable and disfavorable that we deal with in our lives.
The notion that "it would be nice if religion or true" or that religion paints a picture of some kind of idyllic world that we would naturally prefer over reality is one that I disagree with quite vehemently. Is it really so preferable to view our lives as infinitesimal fractions of our existence? If we have a limited time, that makes every minute more valuable. Is it so ameliorable to think that we stand in constant judgment by a being who realistically we could not ever comprehend? Is it such an ideal that good and evil are concepts woven into the fabric of the universe, rather than things we can develop our own sense of? It seems to me that you could take the world that religion presents you with, remove all the specific concepts that religious believers are already precognitively biased towards perceiving as favorable, and write quite a nice piece of dystopian fiction based on the result.
I don't think, either, that religion is innocuous as long as those who believe keep it to themselves as opposed to trying to proselytize others. Religion acts upon the mind like a drug, distorting the individual's perceptions, as well as altering their behavior and emotional state. Consequently, it is my view that those who turn to religion as a means to cope with their problems seem to be to be as much in need of help as those who turn to drugs or alcohol.
More to the point, however, is the simple fact that few people, and perhaps none among the sane, would be believers if they weren't proselytized at some point in their life - almost exclusively at a time when they are particularly vulnerable, such as early childhood, or a time of extended emotional distress. It should strike one as quite poignant how opportunistically religion invades the mind while the mind is in a state of diminished capacity, just as a pathogenic disease might opportunistically attack an individual who is in a state of diminished physical capacity. I don't really care if some religious person wants to try to convert me. They will be a nuisance, perhaps, but they will not cause anyone harm in that course of action. The harm is their own to bear - it is the harm of believing. Tragically, they were probably innocents, once, and only believe now because religion set upon them while they were vulnerable. I don't begrudge them, but rather I would like to see them get the help that they need to free themselves. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
I really was not completely stating my own beliefs regarding the concepts of "good" and "bad" in the universe - I do agree that a more complete existence consists of both the high and low times in life, as there is much beauty and sorrow to be found in the great balance of things. Rather, I was more paraphrasing the very cause for people to find credence in religious doctrine and comfort in the illusory release of control - they falsely assume that their God is their shepherd and that their God will deliver them, so it is much easier for them to cope with their existence in that respect. Chaos is a constant and Earthly beauties are (though a subjectivity, of course) a somewhat rare occurrence in a world with social economy and propagandist horrors residing either from the mouth of a fiery minister or Fox News.
Truthfully, the world is an ugly place - but not wholly ugly - of course there are small beauties and fractions of our astonishing panorama which confirm our sense of a beauty that resides outside of "perfect" biblical archetypes, but it seems to me that most people's happiness is hampered by the fact that they are not conditioned to see such things - they look for what confirms their prejudice of what beauty really is, rather than what the summary meaning of a thing or a person might just be.
I am, however, hesitant to discredit religion completely - as you said, it is a drug that controls the mind, and though it may be one of the most potent and invasive drugs we know of, it is still administered and received by the very thing that creates the source of both beautiful and horrible ideas - free will. People choose to give in, they choose to continue believing in what they were raised to believe - social pressures aside, they, as individuals, choose to not question the source of such authority. But people also choose to see things as beautiful and to see such ugliness in the world - and the ugliness does not create itself - people choose to react and exact it upon one another (perhaps with the best intentions), but it is a choice all the same. I understand that reason is far more often a subjectivity that people take for granted, and both sides of the debate are each as susceptible to ignorance as the other, but I believe in human beings far more than I do religion. Perhaps we did not get to choose whether we have free will or not - perhaps we did - regardless, I do not absolve people of their personal choices because I see both the ugliness and the beauty in such actions. |
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| Ed G |
Religion is like crack.
Proselytizing is like selling crack.
I've tried crack. It's a rush, but it's still stupid and I won't have it as part of my life.
I wasn't even tempted to try religion. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
Is it really so preferable to view our lives as infinitesimal fractions of our existence? |
Not necessarily, but I think it would be nice to live a lot longer and in more pleasant conditions, which I think is probably what many people really have in mind when they think of "heaven" and things like that. |
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| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
Personally I'm quite satisfied with the world overall. Are there many aspects of it I would prefer to change? Certainly. But that, too, is a blessing of sorts. To be totally content with every aspect of one's world is a rather stagnant existence - undesirable, if you ask me, compared with experiencing the broad spectrum of the favorable and disfavorable that we deal with in our lives.
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Ok, you are free to express your opinion. But how can you be satisfied with the world when we have so much hatred for the dumbest of reasons against another human?
How would you feel if there was a Stalin in the world? |
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| Ed G |
| quote: | Originally posted by metalgearsolid
How would you feel if there was a Stalin in the world? |
There ARE Stalins in the world do0d, they just aren't as obvious as the original.
How do you feel? |
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| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ed G
There ARE Stalins in the world do0d, they just aren't as obvious as the original.
How do you feel? |
Name more than one? I don't see any Stalins. And it has nothing to do with being obvious it has to do with getting things done....:nervous: |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by metalgearsolid
How would you feel if there was a Stalin in the world? |
The insulation of public information keeps the world from recognizing the Stalins of its time. In the year 2057, they may look back and see many of our politicians as well as those all around our current world as the "Stalins" of our time. |
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