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Male freedom of choice? (pg. 23)
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
What makes you think that a man has a "right" to opt out on taking care of THEIR offspring?
There is no "right", there is an obligation. It is any humans *obligation* to take care of their children. It is an OPTION/PRIVELAGE for women to abort, or to go to term... not a right. |
the difference between right and option/privilege being?
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
If you have sex with a woman, you know that there is a possibility that she could get pregnant. You are giving away your ability to control what happens to your seed by engaging yourself in that act. She then has the OPTION of what she will do with what you helped have implanted inside of her body. You are still responsible for the result of where you implanted that seed, whether that be a child, or paying for half the abortion costs. |
that, that is, is, that, that is not, is not, is that it? i sure hope not.
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
You can't put an acorn in the middle of a street, and then go off about your business... come back and find a tree and decide that you didn't want/mean for that tree to grow in the middle of the street and that you shouldn't be held responsible for it being there. You put it there, therefore you should be held responsible for those actions. |
you can't put soil and fertilizers over an acorn in the middle of the street and expect the acorn's owner to take responsiblity for it. :o |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
You misunderstand. If a man refuses to pay for a child he never wanted, he may be thrown in prison. That is the violation of bodily autonomy. |
Because it is your obligation as a human being to take care of the problems you created.
Where you got this idea that you can just pawn off, or opt out of your responsibilty to the things that you conciously do, I don't know.
A woman doesn't pawn off or opt out on her responsibility, (in the exception of adoption, which I disagree with entirely, and furthermore is on the shoulders of BOTH the man and the woman... not just one) she deals with it by making the choice of carrying it to term, or aborting it. There is no option for a woman to "opt out" of facing the consequences of her actions. She HAS to either carry it to term, or abort. Aborting is not opting out; it is choosing not to allow her body to become an incubator for 9 months.
Either way, she is FORCED to deal with the result of what she did. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Because it is your obligation as a human being to take care of the problems you created.
Where you got this idea that you can just pawn off, or opt out of your responsibilty to the things that you conciously do, I don't know.
A woman doesn't pawn off or opt out on her responsibility, (in the exception of adoption, which I disagree with entirely, and furthermore is on the shoulders of BOTH the man and the woman... not just one) she deals with it by making the choice of carrying it to term, or aborting it. There is no option for a woman to "opt out" of facing the consequences of her actions. She HAS to either carry it to term, or abort. Aborting is not opting out; it is choosing not to allow her body to become an incubator for 9 months.
Either way, she is FORCED to deal with the result of what she did. |
madness ensues when the abortion morality arugments start.. :stongue: |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Aborting is not opting out; it is choosing not to allow her body to become an incubator for 9 months. |
Phrase it whatever way you like, the consequence is still that once a woman is impregnated, she may choose not to be a mother in one of two ways, but a man cannot choose not to be a father in any way whatever. He no longer has a right to bodily autonomy, for he can be thrown in prison, and he no longer has a right to his finances, for they may be taken from him by the government. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Gah, even the thread title bugs me.
You having sex = FREE CHOICE to take the chance of getting a woman pregnant, whom you know then has control over your seed.
I am a bartender. I give people alcohol. I make the FREE choice to continue giving people alcohol. They get drunk and hurt themselves. I am half responsible for them getting hurt because I made the choice to give something of mine to them that resulted in the consequence.
BY LAW, and in all fairness, I cannot deny my responsibility to the person I gave the alcohol to just because the result turned out to be something I didn't want/intend.
If I didn't want to be held responsible for what he did, I shouldn't have given him the alcohol in the first place.
You give a teen a gun. The teen shoots and kills someone. You are held partially responsible for giving the teen something of yours that they did something with that you didn't necessarily want them to do.
You made the free choice to give your "possesions" to someone else. By doing so, you also lost the ability to control what they would do with your posessions. That was your FREE CHOICE. If they use your possesion for something you don't like, that is too bad, you still have to deal with the result of it. |
difference being that in all of these analogies, unless the act of 'giving your possesion' to someone else is in itself illegal, you are not responsible for the result by law. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by distant
No, I don't. I am not giving away my semen for the woman to do whatever she wants with. I am not consenting to a baby. All I am consenting to is a night of pleasure.
You really need to separate sex for pleasure from sex for procreation. There's no benefit in having this kind of pressure on the act of sex, wouldn't you agree? Having a standardized way of dealing with unwanted pregnancies would promote sex as a form of entertainment (which is already what it is 99.99% of the time). |
I am not trying to be rude, but this seems so beyond stupid to me that I am not even sure why I am responding.
Sex is sex. Whether it be for the sole purpose of procreation or pleasure or whatever the hell else you may do it for, sex REGARDLESS can/will cause procreation. That is the fact of the matter whether you want it to be that or not.
If you want sex for ONLY pleasure, you need to go out of your way and have an unnatural modification to your body (vasectomy). However, NATURALLY, sex has the potential of causing a pregnancy.
When you have sex, you are consenting to the possibility that, EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY TRY TO PREVENT IT, the act MIGHT result in your partner becoming pregnant. |
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| distant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
A woman doesn't pawn off or opt out on her responsibility, (in the exception of adoption, which I disagree with entirely, and furthermore is on the shoulders of BOTH the man and the woman... not just one) she deals with it by making the choice of carrying it to term, or aborting it. |
And why is the man not involved in this choice?
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Aborting is not opting out; it is choosing not to allow her body to become an incubator for 9 months.
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Yet this is hardly a very harsh consequence, now is it? And again, the man has no choice here whether to keep the baby or not (even though it is the woman's body, of course, but you see my point). |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
I wonder...
If one of you guys met a girl and got her pregnant (I am sooo sorry if this sounds sexist, as the terminology denotes that the woman has no choice in the matter as to whether to get pregnant or not) and she decided to keep the baby, but you didn't agree with it because you didn't want to be a father...
What would you do?
Would you run away because it's something you don't want to do? Would you run away because you don't 'agree with it'? |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
you can't put soil and fertilizers over an acorn in the middle of the street and expect the acorn's owner to take responsiblity for it. :o |
Yes you can.
You are responsible for leaving the acorn somewhere where it could be fertilized.
Just like it would be my fault for leaving my purse alone in the bus station, and having the money taken from it.
Being robbed was just as much my fault as it was the person who took the money. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
I am not trying to be rude, but this seems so beyond stupid to me that I am not even sure why I am responding.
Sex is sex. Whether it be for the sole purpose of procreation or pleasure or whatever the hell else you may do it for, sex REGARDLESS can/will cause procreation. That is the fact of the matter whether you want it to be that or not.
If you want sex for ONLY pleasure, you need to go out of your way and have an unnatural modification to your body (vasectomy). However, NATURALLY, sex has the potential of causing a pregnancy.
When you have sex, you are consenting to the possibility that, EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY TRY TO PREVENT IT, the act MIGHT result in your partner becoming pregnant. |
Sure, but you are not consenting to a baby, unless we accept your bizarre, lop-sided "logic." |
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| distant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
When you have sex, you are consenting to the possibility that, EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY TRY TO PREVENT IT, the act MIGHT result in your partner becoming pregnant. |
You still haven't explained why, in this day and age, a man should bear that burdon.
So, what you're still arguing is: Women love sex, men love sex, but only the woman has a choice as to what comes of it, should the condom break. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Yes you can.
You are responsible for leaving the acorn somewhere where it could be fertilized.
Just like it would be my fault for leaving my purse alone in the bus station, and having the money taken from it.
Being robbed was just as much my fault as it was the person who took the money. |
You may feel "morally responsible" for these things, but the law does not work that way, fortunately. |
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