Originally posted by hardcore trancer
So they were invaded because the Americans didnt agree with their ideology?
definately not Saddam's "ideology".
lets not confuse Saddam's ideology with anybody elses.
btw we're throwing around the word ideology very liberaly
Krypton
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Originally posted by Q5echo
if it was more than just WMD's then the logical fallacy that "it was a lie" becomes even more insignifigant, doesn't it?
Logical fallacy...:stongue: ...amusing. Tell me, what logical fallacy is it? The Bush admin was told time and again their "intelligence" was wrong. They were told time and again Iraq had no WMDs. Yes, they are liars of the highest order.
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if you could stand in the middle of Iraqi Parliament while it's in session and ask them one question, what would it be?
Why can't you people get anything done?
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...and furthermore, while you were standing there, would you have the guts to tell them they didn't belong there?
I would have the guts to apologize for us being there..;)
What are you going to do when the Iraqis elect a Shiite theocracy friendly to Iran? Are you going to call them terrorists just like when Palestinians elected Hamas? Democracy...:stongue:...the Arab world most certainly sees through that cockroach . Don't forget Hezbollah is also being elected to high offices in Lebanon. It's only democracy when it suits the American/Zionist empire.
shaolin_Z
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Originally posted by digitalEyes
1. When you are starving in 20 years because we have no oil I hope your 'civilized' manner allows you to be the leader of your friends and neighbors as you try to scavenge for food, while the 'people who have lost their humanity' have already ransacked the stores and stolen all the food you are going to need to survive.
2. Your argument seems to be about ethics and doing what's "civilized" and "uncowardly." OK--tell that to the leaders of America, who have fearlessly created the wonderful, powerhouse country of the world that you live in. If you like things done with delicate, precious fingers that care about others over themselves, good luck finding a place to live. Every country is corrupt and has countless of cover-ups. It's just a matter of who does what the most intelligent way--hence, a game. And America seems to be winning, wouldn't you say? Genius.
Technically I am a genius.
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Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Do yourself and your offspring a favor and try to be a man instead, unless you're content with perpetuating degeneracy.
Q5echo
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Originally posted by Krypton
The Bush admin was told time and again their "intelligence" was wrong. They were told time and again Iraq had no WMDs. Yes, they are liars of the highest order.
the lie is that they lied. anyhow, you are the only one that thinks they lied. because youre special.
if Bush lied then Albright lied. both Clintons lied. Joe Biden Lied. John Edwards lied. the Germans lied. the Frogs and on and on, ect. ect. because NONE of them told us in march 2003 Iraq had nothing. the only organization telling the administration they had their doubts about certain things was our own CIA and the IAEA. and the IAEA was strictly involved with NUCLEAR ambitions.
until someone comes to their senses and says, wait! if we're all lying and insisting to start a major war over this one thing, and we know there isn't anything over there, why didn't we make some stuff up? but we didn't. the Administration bit the bullet and said we were wrong.
to believe they lied is putting your faith into pure propaganda. it's as simple as that. the same propaganda you accuse others of falling for, youre doing the exact same thing.
you do it in the face of all other evidence to the contrary, just like a paranoid 9/11 troother. you do it because no one can tell you you are wrong and you think you are cool and edgy.
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Why can't you people get anything done?
youre just not listening. they just aggreed to terms for un-occupation, fool. they're done with Congress' demands and benchmarks. good for them.
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I would have the guts to apologize for us being there..;)
then you don't have the guts. period. i bet you couldn't look one Iraqi in the eye and tell him he doesn't deserve the government he has. that it's wrong for him to have what he's got.
but you'll do it on this board all day or tell all your little likeminded buddies. thats f**kin bull imo. theres a word for that but i'll keep it to myself.
so you'll go over there and be an apologist thinking you're doing them a favor?:haha: after all they've sacrificed? they'd probably laugh at you.
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What are you going to do when the Iraqis elect a Shiite theocracy friendly to Iran?
now you're down to hypotheticals? they'd have to tear up their Constitution to do that. do you think they'd just tear up their Constitution? there would need to be a real honest to goodness revolution for that to happen.
could it happen? sure. that just underscores the need for an honest, fair and respectfull relationship with the people of that country. that goes well beyond Buler. i have faith as an American that future leaders of this country will foster just that kind of relationship, just like we foster the same with other moderate ME countries. why is that so hard to grasp for you?
atbell
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Originally posted by digitalEyes
1. When you are starving in 20 years because we have no oil I hope your 'civilized' manner allows you to be the leader of your friends and neighbors as you try to scavenge for food, while the 'people who have lost their humanity' have already ransacked the stores and stolen all the food you are going to need to survive.
2. Your argument seems to be about ethics and doing what's "civilized" and "uncowardly." OK--tell that to the leaders of America, who have fearlessly created the wonderful, powerhouse country of the world that you live in. If you like things done with delicate, precious fingers that care about others over themselves, good luck finding a place to live. Every country is corrupt and has countless of cover-ups. It's just a matter of who does what the most intelligent way--hence, a game. And America seems to be winning, wouldn't you say? Genius.
The american army is getting it's ass handed to it by ill equiped, poorly trained, and loosely organized militia's.
I would say they aren't winning at all.
Any country that wants to do something can right now because the american forces are completely tied up. Not to mention that the US needs people to constantly buy treasury bonds or else it will go bancrupt.
An infrastructure build that completely over hauls the US way of life so that oil consumption is cut in half or more is about the only way to "secure" the US right now. I think the political system is to corrupt and the populus is to selfish to see things this way though.
I'd also point out that the invasion of Iraq has shown the world that the US can be beat, it's shown all the weaknesses of the forces and exactly how screwed up everything is. If it hadn't happened the world would have still held some amount of respect for US military might. That kind of mistake is anything but Genius.
What should have happened was that they should have concentrated on Afgan. with the full might of thier forces before doing anything else.
digitalEyes
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Originally posted by atbell
The american army is getting it's ass handed to it by ill equiped, poorly trained, and loosely organized militia's.
I would say they aren't winning at all.
Any country that wants to do something can right now because the american forces are completely tied up. Not to mention that the US needs people to constantly buy treasury bonds or else it will go bancrupt.
An infrastructure build that completely over hauls the US way of life so that oil consumption is cut in half or more is about the only way to "secure" the US right now. I think the political system is to corrupt and the populus is to selfish to see things this way though.
I'd also point out that the invasion of Iraq has shown the world that the US can be beat, it's shown all the weaknesses of the forces and exactly how screwed up everything is. If it hadn't happened the world would have still held some amount of respect for US military might. That kind of mistake is anything but Genius.
What should have happened was that they should have concentrated on Afgan. with the full might of thier forces before doing anything else.
Don't you get it?
The US is PURPOSELY not winning the war so they can PROLONG their STAY in the middle east to be in CONTROL of the OIL.
You are honestly telling me people believe the military of the US is weak? HA! Who is stronger? Please tell me. And why? Surely no one else can rival us in technology, which is where the force of modern warfare comes from. The US could have destroyed everything about Iraq long long ago, but they didn't, you know why? BECAUSE WE ARE DRAWING OUT THIS WAR FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE TO GIVE US A REASON TO STAY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. What the hell would be the point to get in and out of there as quick as we can? Bush and Cheney are huge oil guys, and very large investors. They both know and understand the benefits oil brings, which is how they became MILLIONAIRES and rose up to such a high status in America. This is THE perfect time to both please the people of the US by fighting the bad guys as well as reaping the benetifs of the oil. My god!
We are getting our asses whooped by "ill equiped, poorly trained, and loosely organized militia??????" Right! The fact that we "cannot" control these forces and get rid of them is EXACTLY WHAT THE US GOVERNMENT WANTS. Do you still not see this? The Big and Mighty US cannot handle these pathetic terrorists? The US is in no rush to destroy their opponents. It's all part of a delicate balancing act to keep the public eye interested enough to both make them believe we still need troops there and all the while make it appear we are 'winning the war.'
EDIT:
9/11 was almost too convenient. We wiped out what we could in Afghanistan, bombing the hell out of it, and then moved on to Iraq to not only put our foot down on middle eastern oil through the occupation of Iraq, but to keep things somewhat quiet in Afghanistan so we can focus on putting a pipeline through to all the lush oil fields in the countries below Russia and reap all the benefits of having another gigantic oil supply to feed the US. Again, brilliant maneuvering and just emphasizes more how convenient 9/11 actually was.
Q5echo
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Originally posted by digitalEyes
The US is PURPOSELY not winning the war so they can PROLONG their STAY in the middle east to be in CONTROL of the OIL.
we control none of their oil. zero. zip. nada.
Krypton
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Originally posted by Q5echo
the lie is that they lied. anyhow, you are the only one that thinks they lied. because youre special.
Glad to know people who subscribe to a certain political thought starlky opposed to your own are "retards"...sounds like trancer x's "sheeple" arguments.
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if Bush lied then Albright lied. both Clintons lied. Joe Biden Lied. John Edwards lied. the Germans lied. the Frogs and on and on, ect. ect. because NONE of them told us in march 2003 Iraq had nothing. the only organization telling the administration they had their doubts about certain things was our own CIA and the IAEA. and the IAEA was strictly involved with NUCLEAR ambitions.
I don't care what the politicians told us. The BUSH ADMINISTRATION, those politicians, were told time and again, BEFORE THE INVASION, there is no concrete definitive evidence of a reconstituted nuclear OR biological OR chemical weapons program. They were told this by the CIA, IAEA, and UNMOVIC. Additionally, foreign intelligence services DID NOT tell the president Iraqi had a weapons program, but simply the fact that they could have a program. To say they had a WMD program, without the undoubtable evidence, is jumping to conclusions. The president was also told that the intelligence such as "mobile labs", Al-Qaida sponsorship, and new WMD programs were not credible because of the simple fact the detainees who gave us this "intelligence" were being tortured by the CIA's rendition program (I'm sure you'll defend that too;)). And the Iraqi defectors who also gave us false intelligence were shown to have ulterior motives. Yes, the Bush regime lied. They misled. They are liars.
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until someone comes to their senses and says, wait! if we're all lying and insisting to start a major war over this one thing, and we know there isn't anything over there, why didn't we make some stuff up? but we didn't. the Administration bit the bullet and said we were wrong.
I don't know what you're trying to say here, so I won't comment.
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to believe they lied is putting your faith into pure propaganda. it's as simple as that. the same propaganda you accuse others of falling for, youre doing the exact same thing.
No sir, none of this is propaganda. I'm sure you'de love to call the discovery of the WMD lie propaganda. Or the discovery of false Al-Qaida sponsorship propaganda. Or the hundreds of thousands dead simple propaganda. All of this is propaganda only to you. To me and millions of sensible people, these are truths. The entire case for war laid out by Bush in his 2003 state of the union address was PROVEN to be false. I guess the proofs are also propaganda right?
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you do it in the face of all other evidence to the contrary, just like a paranoid 9/11 troother. you do it because no one can tell you you are wrong and you think you are cool and edgy.
See 9/11 truthers can not definitively prove their assertions. As I said, the case for war by the Bush Admin, made in 2002-2003 is DIFINITIVELY PROVEN to be false. You will never be able to simply brush this fact away by labeling it "paranoid propaganda". Funny, you assert my political thought to simply be my supposed desire to be "cool and edgy". Nice one, but you can certainly do better than that...;)
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youre just not listening. they just aggreed to terms for un-occupation, fool. they're done with Congress' demands and benchmarks. good for them.
Here are some facts for you. There are to this day over 300,000 person occupation force in Iraq. The Kurds are signing their own oil deals with foreign multinational corporations. The Iraqi parliament is paralyzed by their inability to compromise. The country's young generation has grown up under occupation, war, death, and destruction. They are a ruined generation. The country has several MILLION displaced persons, both internally and externally. The country is still occupied, and IS NOT A SOVEREIGN STATE. You should listen to that..
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then you don't have the guts. period. i bet you couldn't look one Iraqi in the eye and tell him he doesn't deserve the government he has. that it's wrong for him to have what he's got.
I have the guts to tell the Iraqis they deserve whatever government they want. I have the guts to TELL YOU, we have no right to TELL THEM what form of government they must accept.
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but you'll do it on this board all day or tell all your little likeminded buddies. thats f**kin bull imo. theres a word for that but i'll keep it to myself.
Here you are pissy simply because I share and defend my political views on this board. Sorry I'm not a and just accept everything authority figures want to shove down my throat. Pat yourself on the back for being an unquestionable follower of authority, even when they are so blatantly WRONG.
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so you'll go over there and be an apologist thinking you're doing them a favor?:haha: after all they've sacrificed? they'd probably laugh at you.
I'm an apologist for Iraqis, hell yes I am. I want them to run their own country, unoccupied, unmolested. The sacrifices they've made were not in the support of American occupation. They did not ask for us to invade them. Even the shiites, who suffered so badly under Saddam, opposed the invasion/occupation. Sacrifice..:stongue:..for what? American domination of their country?:haha:
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now you're down to hypotheticals? they'd have to tear up their Constitution to do that. do you think they'd just tear up their Constitution? there would need to be a real honest to goodness revolution for that to happen.
Hypotheticals? It's already happened. Hamas, Hezbollah, even the theocratic Iranian government is supported not by an obscure group of radicals, but BY THE GRASS ROOTS POPULATIONS! They have the support of their people. They were elected in FREE & FAIR ELECTIONS. But the results were rejected because they did not vote the "right way". Their constitution does not stop a theocratic government from taking power.
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could it happen? sure. that just underscores the need for an honest, fair and respectfull relationship with the people of that country. that goes well beyond Buler. i have faith as an American that future leaders of this country will foster just that kind of relationship, just like we foster the same with other moderate ME countries. why is that so hard to grasp for you?
A free and fair relationship is...
1. Don't invade the country on false premises.
2. The country is not occupied by over 300,000 occupation force.
You want to talk about free and fair? You wouldn't know "free and fair" if it was in front of your face. Why is that so hard for YOU to grasp?;)
digitalEyes
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Originally posted by Q5echo
we control none of their oil. zero. zip. nada.
They may not be in control, but I can assure you the US would certainly love to be in control.
atbell
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Originally posted by digitalEyes
Don't you get it?
The US is PURPOSELY not winning the war so they can PROLONG their STAY in the middle east to be in CONTROL of the OIL.
Yeah, there is no control of the oil as pointed out. There is no way that the administration wants to be in Iraq. They would have prefered to set up a puppet in the first 6 months and then leave only enough troops to keep some control. The war has been a disaster and neither Bush nor Cheney is getting that much out of it. There's actually a pretty good case to try both of them, along with others in the admin, for war crimes.
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You are honestly telling me people believe the military of the US is weak? HA! Who is stronger? Please tell me. And why? Surely no one else can rival us in technology, which is where the force of modern warfare comes from. The US could have destroyed everything about Iraq long long ago, but they didn't, you know why?
Yes.
You will notice the Russian action in Georgia recently. That would never have happened if the US were a viable military force.
Or the retoric of Chavez, nut or not he's still nationalizing the country and firing volly after volly at Bush. He knows he can do it because the US is weak.
Or how about Iran? Where is the back up to the US threats? I bet the Iranian leadership is sleeping well right now, even as they continue to enrich more uranium.
On the technological front I'd like to point out that the Chinese can track and shoot down satalites from the ground, the US can not. Iran and China have both been developing anti ship missiles that are designed to take out air craft carriers. Russia has a missile that can be alter it's course to avoid missile shields.
The only reason you believe the US has a technological advantage is because the media in the English world tells you so.
What about the Humvee's that are being destroyed, the troops without armour, or the fact that kitchen sink IED's are ripping appart the APCs as insurgents stand by and video tape the results.
There is no way the US could have destroyed everything about Iraq. Technically it is possible, but you've said it yourself, the US needs the oil in the middle east. Nuking Iraq would have left it a toxic hell hole and made the oil impossible to get. Not to mention that almost every Arab and islamic state would have gone off thier rocker. Not even the Saudi royals could have held the fury back in that case. There probably would be an oil embargo on the US in a matter of minutes after the bombs hit.
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BECAUSE WE ARE DRAWING OUT THIS WAR FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE TO GIVE US A REASON TO STAY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. What the hell would be the point to get in and out of there as quick as we can? Bush and Cheney are huge oil guys, and very large investors. They both know and understand the benefits oil brings, which is how they became MILLIONAIRES and rose up to such a high status in America. This is THE perfect time to both please the people of the US by fighting the bad guys as well as reaping the benetifs of the oil. My god!
We are getting our asses whooped by "ill equiped, poorly trained, and loosely organized militia??????" Right! The fact that we "cannot" control these forces and get rid of them is EXACTLY WHAT THE US GOVERNMENT WANTS. Do you still not see this? The Big and Mighty US cannot handle these pathetic terrorists? The US is in no rush to destroy their opponents. It's all part of a delicate balancing act to keep the public eye interested enough to both make them believe we still need troops there and all the while make it appear we are 'winning the war.'
So let me get this straight, you think that it is a good idea to bankrupt a country through continuous spending of billions on a war that will go on in perpetuity? The economic situation in the US is abismal and it's getting worse. How long do you really think peioe are going to accept US$ for anything?
There is no balencing act here and the US military can not handle the terorists. You seem to be naive to the dificulties of fighting in a mountain range while maintaining a supply line through hostile teritory. Have you not been following the fact that the Taliban have been making a come back in recent weeks? They've gained control of significant parts of the Southern reaches of the country using little more then what they carry on thier back.
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EDIT:
9/11 was almost too convenient. We wiped out what we could in Afghanistan, bombing the hell out of it, and then moved on to Iraq to not only put our foot down on middle eastern oil through the occupation of Iraq, but to keep things somewhat quiet in Afghanistan so we can focus on putting a pipeline through to all the lush oil fields in the countries below Russia and reap all the benefits of having another gigantic oil supply to feed the US. Again, brilliant maneuvering and just emphasizes more how convenient 9/11 actually was.
Yes this was the plan, to get a pipe line through Afgan that would cut out Russian control of the oil in and around the Caspian. It's not working though. The US is having trouble even keeping the pipelines in the deserts of Iraq secure, there is no way they could build and maintain one through both Afganistan and Pakistan.
None of this was briliant maneuvering. It was a reactionary response based on some vauge plans by people with no experience in foreign affairs or even military opperations.
Almost every action since the invasion in 2001 has been disasterous.
Q5echo
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Originally posted by Krypton
Glad to know people who subscribe to a certain political thought starlky opposed to your own are "retards"...sounds like trancer x's "sheeple" arguments.
you are sheeple. you believe something but have no evidence to support it. someone told you it was a lie and you liked the way it sounded.
Clinton bags some broad in the Oval Office then lies about it, he gets impeached. your claiming a few thousand American soldiers died because Bush lied and he gets low poll #'s. you don't find that odd?
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I don't care what the politicians told us.
of course you don't. it doesn't fit your theory. in fact, it contradicts it so of course you don't care what they say. are you saying they're all in on the lie as well?
these are the same politicians that not only gave Bush the authority to go to war but, but parroted "the lie". youre not holding them accountable, youre ignoring them.
thats the whole idea of a separate branch of government. they had independent access to the same intelligence. why would they lie about Saddam having WMD's.
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of course you don'tThe BUSH ADMINISTRATION, those politicians, were told time and again, BEFORE THE INVASION, there is no concrete definitive evidence of a reconstituted nuclear OR biological OR chemical weapons program.
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They were told this by the CIA, IAEA, and UNMOVIC. Additionally, foreign intelligence services DID NOT tell the president Iraqi had a weapons program, but simply the fact that they could have a program.
you are assuming that the CIA, IAEA had no evidence to back up their claim that Saddam did have WMD's and all the evidence they had was contradictory. you're wrong. we had years of evidence and intell that he did have WMD's. we had much more evidence that he did than we had evidence saying that he didn't. what you don't understand is that people were not willing to take the risk that he didn't have them based on what little evidence we had pointing to that fact compared to what we had long assumed.
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To say they had a WMD program, without the undoubtable evidence, is jumping to conclusions.
which is not lying. yet we had plenty of evidence to say that he did.
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The president was also told that the intelligence such as "mobile labs", Al-Qaida sponsorship, and new WMD programs were not credible because of the simple fact the detainees who gave us this "intelligence" were being tortured by the CIA's rendition program (I'm sure you'll defend that too;)). And the Iraqi defectors who also gave us false intelligence were shown to have ulterior motives.
you're talking about "curveball" the Germans never let us lay our hands on curveball. by German law, we weren't EVER given access to curveball. so again, you've been tricked into believing something not true and it's led you down a path.
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Yes, the Bush regime lied. They misled. They are liars.
proof. thats all i ask. something that would stand up in a court of law.
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I don't know what you're trying to say here, so I won't comment.
ok let me put it to you this way. you're saying that Buler is basically the "bad cop", the corrupt police officer and Saddam's Iraq was the poor helpless hippie that got pulled over in his VW bus on his way to California. if Buler knew what he was telling the world was a lie, that no WMD's were in Iraq in 2003, why didn't he just plant some like a crooked cop dropping an 8-ball on the floorboard? why didn't the corrupt Neocons save themselves years of grief and just plant some WMD's? they killed every one of Saddam's merry band of losers including his sons, it would have been so easy and noone would have been the wiser.
why risk any of it? he's sending kids to die in a war. why risk a death sentence by military tribunal on something so stupid as lying about something that you know doesn't exist?
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To me and millions of sensible people, these are truths.
if you say so, but you have to make sense out of it all. you're failing that and just telling me he lied. you need to do better than that otherwise it remains purely propaganda.
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The entire case for war laid out by Bush in his 2003 state of the union address was PROVEN to be false. I guess the proofs are also propaganda right?
no. they're just false (as far as Saddam's WMD's). you make a huge jump when you say it's a lie.
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Here are some facts for you. There are to this day over 300,000 person occupation force in Iraq.
The Kurds are signing their own oil deals with foreign multinational corporations.
there are many deals going on >LINK< whats your point?
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The Iraqi parliament is paralyzed by their inability to compromise.
evidence? and why would that be any different for them compared to any other government? look at ours.
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and IS NOT A SOVEREIGN STATE. You should listen to that..
i should listen to their government as you should.
Q5echo
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Originally posted by digitalEyes
They may not be in control, but I can assure you the US would certainly love to be in control.
you're not getting off that easy. you said we're controlling their oil.
they pump 2 million barrels a day into a FREE MARKET. we pump that out of the Gulf of Mexico alone in a day. anywhere from 7% to 15% of our imported oil comes from the Middle East. at their height of production in 1990 prior to the Kuwait invasion Iraq was only pumping around 3.5 million barrels a day.
we use 26 million barrels a day on our own. WTF would we want their 2 million barrels for?
the Iraq government is working with a $70 billion surplus budget so far this year because of THEIR oil THEY control. >LINK< did they just have $70 billion dollars in their budget just lying around? no.
