Originally posted by Q5echo
equivalency is not an argument. it's the anti-argument. it's what you do when you're scared
What? Who's scared? And of what?
jerZ07002
quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
what i think of you is irrelevant and maybe uncalled for but do you understand my point about the film?
i never understood why muslims care so much about what non-muslims think about them (in movies, etc...). you could talk about pope what-the--is-his-name and as a catholic I could not care less.
Q5echo
watch this and ill swear afterwards you'll be overcome with the desire to kick MP Keith Vaz in his fat twat.
DJ Damerchi
Q5-Keith Vaz is a douche....but do you know who he reminds me of?
hint;"you don't know keith"
George Smiley
Can I just ask people here a question:
Considering that all Christians in the world have the same book to base their beliefs and actions around, can you come up with a single characterisation of all Christians in the world based solely on the Bible? No, obviously you can't, because as we know, there are a wide range of Christians from fundamentalist terrorists to peace loving hippies, not to mention the hundreds of denominations.
Islam is no different. You have a wide range of Muslims from fundamentalist terrorists to peace loving hippies to those who pick and choose which religious beliefs to adhere to.
You can take the Koran or the Bible or the Torah and pick and choose what you want out of it and come to the conclusion that all Muslims, Christians and Jews MUST be violent fundamentalists because that's what it says in their holy books. But you can also come to the conclusion that all Muslims, Christians and Jews MUST be peace loving hippies because that's also what it says in their holy books!
I honestly would have thought that people who take an interest in the topics in this forum would be intelligent enough to know that, and would be able to identify that when arguments of this kind are put forward that it's not actually a valid criticism against Islam, but propaganda to win popular support for their anti-immigration policies!
Alex
The Dutch MP might be a douche bag, but the fact is Islam is a religion that doesn't play nice.
Whoever it was in this thread that claimed it's fanaticism that fuels the bull in Islam is mistaken.
Colin Powell said after 9/11 that no major religion could advocate such murderous violence, but he was actually completely wrong because the 9th Surah of the Quran certainly does advocate nay encourage such tactics against any non-believer.
I'm not sure how many people here know a lot about Muslim Theology. I'm certainly no expert but I do find a few things to be completely unsound logically such as the following belief that is more or less contradictory to their entire belief in Allah:
Muslims believe that the Bible's take on Jesus is wrong and that Allah is sending every Christian that dies each day to hell. The problem here is that Allah is incapable of making error, or delivering a message that could be misinterpreted in any possible way (huge difference between Allah and the Christian God right there). Here's the problem, the Bible texts were of course written before the versions of the Biblical events appeared in the Quran. So why did Allah allow Jesus (who is said to be one of his prophets) to masquerade as Allah himself and repeatedly claim to be God, glorify the man as a miracle worker in the name of Allah and allow him to be martyred in his name? It is the gravest sin in Islam to liken anything to the esteemed position of God, so the evidence that Jesus claimed to be God contradicts that most important teaching because Muslims just so happen to believe Jesus was a great prophet of Allah that worked miracles and is now in Heaven with him.
That's just one example of about a million that raises serious and resounding questions concerning Muslim theology.
Oh, and for those of you that went to Sunday school as a kid, this other one is also sort of a wtf thing:
In Genesis it is written that Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac on the alter but he didn't because God intervened at the last minute. Many, many Muslims believe that it was Ishmael that was to be sacrificed and not Isaac despite the fact that the Quran itself says it was Isaac. Wtf? And I would avoid asking any devout Muslims about this as in my experience they tend to get very annoyed and offended very quickly and don't really offer any explanation apart from how much of a heathen I (you) am (are). (Side note: Ishmael is where Muslims believe they are descended from, where as Abraham + Isaac are who Jews/Christians are descended from.)
George Smiley
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
The Dutch MP might be a douche bag, but the fact is Islam is a religion that doesn't play nice.
Oh come on!
You can draw any conclusion you want from the religious texts of a religion and the actions of its followers!
There's plenty of bloodshed and justifications for violence in the Bible, and the followers of Christianity went on Crusades in order to exert their dominance over the world (killing thousands in the process)
But does that make every single Christian a bloodthirsty Crusader?!
Obviously not...
Alex
It's kind of funny that you used the crusades as an example here :p
Ironic even! :stongue:
I didn't say that every Muslim is a bloody thirsty nutter, and to use the violence in the Old Testament (which is discontinued in the New and was all directed by God in the first place, not by people) as a relation between Islam and Christianity is invalid.
It doesn't say in the Bible to kill people under any circumstances apart from pure self defense. Unbelievers aren't to be persecuted and killed if they refuse to convert.
Do all Muslims attempt to kill everyone that isn't Muslim? No. Is it part of their theology and religious doctrine? Absolutely.
George Smiley
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
It's kind of funny that you used the crusades as an example here :p
Ironic even! :stongue:
I didn't say that every Muslim is a bloody thirsty nutter, and to use the violence in the Old Testament (which is discontinued in the New and was all directed by God in the first place, not by people) as a relation between Islam and Christianity is invalid.
It doesn't say in the Bible to kill people under any circumstances apart from pure self defense. Unbelievers aren't to be persecuted and killed if they refuse to convert.
Do all Muslims attempt to kill everyone that isn't Muslim? No. Is it part of their theology and religious doctrine? Absolutely.
But my whole point is it's bloody irrelevant what it says in a holy text! Followers will choose to interpret it as they want in order to fulfil whatever current aims they have!
If it doesn't say Christians can kill non-believers, then on what pretext were the Crusaders operating under? They went to the Middle East and killed non-believers and were willing (and wanted) to die in the process because that would guarantee them eternity in heaven!
The fact is, you can come to any conclusion you want to about ANY religion based on selective quotes from their holy books and by the actions of some of their followers throughout history and in the modern day. Seriously, can't you see that? I can write post after post about how Jews and Christians are evil because of what their books say and what "they" have gotten up to in the past and present, just as you could (and are) doing the same about Muslims. You would spend post after post defending the Christians and Jews because you'd claim I was selectively quoting and that the examples I give of them being evil (like the Crusades above, for example) were not representative of the entire Christian and Jewish faiths, or that they did not relate to their holy texts. I'd laugh because I would see the irony in your arguments, but I have a feeling you'd never be able to see the irony yourself...
LazFX
quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
The fact is, you can come to any conclusion you want to about ANY religion based on selective quotes from their holy books and by the actions of some of their followers throughout history and in the modern day. Seriously, can't you see that? I can write post after post about how Jews and Christians are evil because of what their books say and what "they" have gotten up to in the past and present, just as you could (and are) doing the same about Muslims. You would spend post after post defending the Christians and Jews because you'd claim I was selectively quoting and that the examples I give of them being evil (like the Crusades above, for example) were not representative of the entire Christian and Jewish faiths, or that they did not relate to their holy texts. I'd laugh because I would see the irony in your arguments, but I have a feeling you'd never be able to see the irony yourself...
Well stated George.
-=Kotten=-
quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
But my whole point is it's bloody irrelevant what it says in a holy text! Followers will choose to interpret it as they want in order to fulfil whatever current aims they have!
If it doesn't say Christians can kill non-believers, then on what pretext were the Crusaders operating under? They went to the Middle East and killed non-believers and were willing (and wanted) to die in the process because that would guarantee them eternity in heaven!
The crusaders went to the holyland to free jerusalem from the muslim invaders who terrorist the christian population.
Its pretty retarded to compare The Koran to other holy texts. In the bible you have the ten commandments, which are the direct words of god. The rest are just stories written by apostels and other believers. Kind of like the Hadith in Islam. The Koran on the other hand is the EXACT words of god himself. There are no room for denial or interpretation. If it says that the unbelievers should be converted or killed that is the direct will of Allah and it cant be denied or refuted. The only way to change it is for Allah himself to change his mind.
Thats the thing about the Koran. All the evil, psychotic vurses are from the time when Mohammed where butchering jews and christians after his capture of Medina. The peaceful versus are from his early times in Mecka and are therefor made null and void by the later ones.
George Smiley
quote:
Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
The crusaders went to the holyland to free jerusalem from the muslim invaders who terrorist the christian population.
Its pretty retarded to compare The Koran to other holy texts. In the bible you have the ten commandments, which are the direct words of god. The rest are just stories written by apostels and other believers. Kind of like the Hadith in Islam. The Koran on the other hand is the EXACT words of god himself. There are no room for denial or interpretation. If it says that the unbelievers should be converted or killed that is the direct will of Allah and it cant be denied or refuted. The only way to change it is for Allah himself to change his mind.
Thats the thing about the Koran. All the evil, psychotic vurses are from the time when Mohammed where butchering jews and christians after his capture of Medina. The peaceful versus are from his early times in Mecka and are therefor made null and void by the later ones.
:D :D :D
So you'll be a Christian then? Taking offence at somebody using your holy book and the actions of your fellow Christians to criticise you? Even tho you have your own interpretation of the Bible and nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of your fellow Christians?
(Oh and I love your selective revision of history to make the Christians sound oh so delightful, made your post even funnier than it already is! Btw, the Crusades weren't just against Muslims, were they...?)
