|
Fitna, the controversial dutch movie (pg. 5)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| BARS-N-STARS |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
To be perfectly honest, if the Crusades weren't a Christian Jihad I really don't know what is! And considering "God" told George Bush to invade Iraq, then the war that he dragged us all into should probably be considered a Christian Jihad as well. |
I do know this. Women and children are safer in that region because of Jewish and Christian humanitarism. Saddam was gasing his own people and keeping them in poverty. So if that is Christian Jihad then ill take that over Islamic Jihad any day.
Just the other day I read an article of a school teacher being loaded with bullets and hung from a stake for not pulling his pant legs up over his ankles. I assume this has nothing to do with Islam. |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
damn man, whats up with all the Muslim threads?? |
Probably part of the economic fall out. Us anglos need someone to blame Muslims and Chinese are easy targets because they look different, Russians are easy targets because the propoganda's already in place ;) |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
That movie is way too short and shallow to explain the true evil of the idiology that is islam. Here are two better ones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGj3exNockM
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
|
This comment, along with the one about 'not REAL muslims' is an extremly bad way to look at things.
Really, 'the true evil of the idiology that is islam.' give me a break. It's clear that you're not used to critically evaluating ideologies because there are few that could be painted with the single, all encompasing 'Evil' brush.
From what I've seen, read, heard, logically deduced, Islam is a massive religion with at least two major factions that are extremely different. One faction believes in an absolute truth which entails the absolute right of leadership where as the other believes that leadership is required to serve 'truth' (allah?) and should be resisted at all costs when the leadership deveates.
Clearly this is a paraphrase and is inexact but it illustrates what needs to be done, looking at the elements of an ideology that are troubling, anti-social, or could instigate violent conflict while also attempting to identify elements that would benifit others. Ideologies are sets of ideas, the should be evaluated as such, not as a stand alone package. |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS
Im Agnostic and I have questions. If I saw people like David Koresh on a daily basis useing the Bible like that I would question the facts of the Bible too but I dont. |
There are facts in the bible? |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
Its pretty retarded to compare The Koran to other holy texts. In the bible you have the ten commandments, which are the direct words of god. |
So let me get this straight, a book tells a story about a guy who goes up a mountain and comes down with two tablets that have been chizzeled and that means that the ten commandments are the word of god?
Don't you see the many places that this story has problems? Have you never played the telephone game?
1. the bible has been transcribed and translated numerous times. Each translation / transcription changes the meaning of the text. Therefore assuming the original bible was 'the true word of god' it would still be eroneous because of the multiple errors which have built up in the 1600 years of transcription.
2. The bible was written well after the events it describes occured. As noted above the time line is something like 400 years after the death of Jesus. Before this time most of the bible passages relied on oral tradition to be re-told. So, assuming the original tales were the word of god AND that point 1 did not occur, then there are numerous errors in the bibles we use because of the time that tales of the bible were passed down by oral tradition (in the case of Moses this is many hundreds of years).
3. If I went up a mountain and came back with two stone tablets days later with a fantastic story about how they were created no one would beleive me, they'd think I was an ass who did some carving and wanted attention. Isn't it at least possible that Moses was simply a wise man who wrote down some really good base rules that worked well, with slight varriation and delibration about thier application, for many hundreds of years?
| quote: |
The rest are just stories written by apostels and other believers. Kind of like the Hadith in Islam. The Koran on the other hand is the EXACT words of god himself. There are no room for denial or interpretation. If it says that the unbelievers should be converted or killed that is the direct will of Allah and it cant be denied or refuted. The only way to change it is for Allah himself to change his mind.
Thats the thing about the Koran. All the evil, psychotic vurses are from the time when Mohammed where butchering jews and christians after his capture of Medina. The peaceful versus are from his early times in Mecka and are therefor made null and void by the later ones. |
So this is only a problem for people who translate and follow every verse exactly. I don't think there are many of these people.
This allows for plenty of room for Muslims who are of the same bent as Christians and Jews who realize that not every writing in thier texts is exact. |
|
|
| atbell |
Englands going to do better then the US.
Not to mention the US isn't even a real country any more, maybe we should start calling it the United States of China ;)
...
Where did the sudden any brit sentiment come from? Are you so devoid of logical arguments that you've reverted to nationalistic slander?
Couldn't you have started by slinging personal insults? Or maybe "your mama so fat" type jabs? |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS
Because I love pork. |
Then you could be a BAD muslim, or maybe a bad Jew?
I'm sure you will find out in the end so don't sweat it. |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
Exactly. Moses is one of islams most regarded profets. While christianity belive GOD sent his son to preach about piece, love and understanding and thuss obandon old wicked ways, islam is all about uphoalding the past. |
Ah but if, as you're trying to (incorrectly) make out, Christians have no time for Moses (or the Jews) then why is the Old Testament part of the Bible?
Here's a quote from the Bible:
| quote: | | Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man |
Now that's not very peace like is it?!
Anyway, let's stop tickling each others' balls shall we? We could go on and on for pages and pages quoting out of the Bible or the Koran to prove a point. The fact is, in both texts, there are pretty horrific that is written about (they are both, after all, just a quasi-historical account of that religion, and most histories have a lot of bloodshed it), but it's up to the individual to choose whether to interpret the hippy stuff or the violent stuff (and they are also egged on by groups with their own agendas)
Those who choose to justify their actions with the violent stuff tend to have certain aims they aspire to, and just use religion as an excuse or a recruitment tool.
There is nothing inherent in Islam that isn't inherent in Christianity... |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
Exactly. Moses is one of islams most regarded profets. While christianity belive GOD sent his son to preach about piece, love and understanding and thuss obandon old wicked ways, islam is all about uphoalding the past.
What GOD told moses about the idolworshipers(of the golden calf):
Exodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
|
You're not a very good athiest spouting all this christian retoric. You even capitalized the word bible.
Let's try this on for size, does god exist?
Did moses exist?
Did jesus exist?
| quote: |
This reflects what the koran says about idolworshipers and unbelievers and streangthens muslims view that their obligation is to convert or kill all mankind.
I recommend you to go to a christian church. You will see something behind the alter. Compare this to what happened when someone drew a picture of mohammed.
Soo...based on that...what religion in current times do you think fits the story of moses and the idolworshipers (of the golden calf) ? |
You really don't see the irony of this do you.
The cross is an idol, the crusifix is an idol, haylos are idols, stain glass windows are idols, churches are idols, the star of david is an idol.
The ban on images of mohammed is a ban on idols. The reason that it is a part of the religion is because by making a picture of mohammed people would begin to worship the picture and to ignore the text.
Clearly this doesn't make the violence acceptable against those who draw the pictures, but still, come on! |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS
I do know this. Women and children are safer in that region because of Jewish and Christian humanitarism. Saddam was gasing his own people and keeping them in poverty. So if that is Christian Jihad then ill take that over Islamic Jihad any day.
Just the other day I read an article of a school teacher being loaded with bullets and hung from a stake for not pulling his pant legs up over his ankles. I assume this has nothing to do with Islam. |
Again, we can go back and forth finding examples of bad stuff every religion on Earth has done either today or at some point in the past. We can also find contemporary cultures influenced by Islam or Christianity that are pretty backwards (and also there would be countless individual examples of that in America too!)
But, the difference is, I'm not stupid enough to think that because of these examples, all Christians are fundamentally the same, or, given all the fundamentalist Christians in America, that all Americans are somehow like that... |
|
|
| BARS-N-STARS |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Again, we can go back and forth finding examples of bad stuff every religion on Earth has done either today or at some point in the past. We can also find contemporary cultures influenced by Islam or Christianity that are pretty backwards (and also there would be countless individual examples of that in America too!)
But, the difference is, I'm not stupid enough to think that because of these examples, all Christians are fundamentally the same, or, given all the fundamentalist Christians in America, that all Americans are somehow like that... |
Ok fair enough. Ever cross your mind maybe people who make acts like this understand the book better than you do. Maybe that explains the rise of extremism. |
|
|
| atbell |
So I watched the full movie.
Breifly: an extremist response to extremisim.
The film isn't even really against Islam per se, it is against the acts of violence carried out in the name of Islam. The director / writer made a mistake there, I think he wanted to make something anti-Islam but didn't really do it. He just showed a bunch of selected clips of extrimists.
An example could easily be made showing instances of other religious extremisim that would look almost exactly the same as that film. How do you think the people of Iran see McCain's rendition of bomb iran? Add to that numerous pictures of ravaged corpses blown up with American bombs and you have a pretty effective video for the other side.
I didn't like the fact that the movie tried to get some fake authenticity by quoting unknown figures and seeming semi-documentary. I also didn't like the sensationalisim of the video.
If the intent was to show the 'dangers' that islam poses to the world then it should have presented an argument in documentary form at a minimum (like with words explaining the images). Even better would be to have a supporting text. It's much more difficult to be missleading in writing. |
|
|
|
|
