|
Fitna, the controversial dutch movie (pg. 6)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS
Ok fair enough. Ever cross your mind maybe people who make acts like this understand the book better than you do. Maybe that explains the rise of extremism. |
Ever cross your mind that people who claim to have religious insight are just interested in power?
It's not so much a mater of understanding 'the' book as understanding books. Logic, reason, and science trump mystisisim and dogma. |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS
Ok fair enough. Ever cross your mind maybe people who make acts like this understand the book better than you do. Maybe that explains the rise of extremism. |
Well I could say to you "don't you think the peace loving hippy imams in most mosques know the book better than you?" (and I'd be right, of course!)
The fact is, all these groups that interpret the book that way (from all religions), do so to control individuals or populations. In fact, Geert Wilder choosing to interpret the Koran is doing just that. Take Hamas or Hizballah, extreme forms of Islam, but both use it to gain political power. Look at your own country - anyone who wants to be President has to talk about how they love God or they won't get elected (do you think they all give a about God or are they just saying what the electorate want to hear?). In this country, Tony Blair (who is quite Christian) had to keep his beliefs to himself, otherwise the British public would have thought he was a nutter (like they did when a Cabinet Minister "came out" and started bangin on about Opus Dei!)
Extreme Islam was born out of oppression, corruption and poverty in the Middle East. Their aim wasn't to radicalise the population, but to overturn those governments that were preventing their societies from being successful. So you can see that even originally these groups wanted to use religion to gain power... |
|
|
| BARS-N-STARS |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So you can see that even originally these groups wanted to use religion to gain power... |
Good point. This topic has helped me understand why my views to Atheism and Nationalism are getting stronger by the day. |
|
|
| -=Kotten=- |
| quote: | Originally posted by atbell
You really don't see the irony of this do you.
The cross is an idol, the crusifix is an idol, haylos are idols, stain glass windows are idols, churches are idols, the star of david is an idol.
The ban on images of mohammed is a ban on idols. The reason that it is a part of the religion is because by making a picture of mohammed people would begin to worship the picture and to ignore the text.
|
But this is exactly what I said. :rolleyes:
Islam upholds the old traditions of moses while chrstians dont... |
|
|
| George Smiley |
Actually I say go back even further, to the very beginning of these religions:
Moses wanted to create a state for his tribe, and controlled the people into doing it by claiming it was God's work
Jesus wanted to order society according to his personal ideas, so he controlled the people into doing it by claiming it was God's work
Mohammed wanted to create a state for his tribe and order society according to his personal ideas, so he controlled the people into doing it by claiming it was God's work
I'd argue that not only are religions used to control people, they were invented for that precise purpose... |
|
|
| -=Kotten=- |
| quote: | Originally posted by atbell
If the intent was to show the 'dangers' that islam poses to the world then it should have presented an argument in documentary form at a minimum (like with words explaining the images). Even better would be to have a supporting text. It's much more difficult to be missleading in writing. |
Indead a crappy film. Thats why you should watch the better ones:
Islam: What the west needs to know
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
Obsession: Rise of radical Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGj3exNockM |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
Islam upholds the old traditions of moses while chrstians dont... |
Funny cos I was always under the impression the Old Testament was part of the Bible!
You should have told them! You any idea how many Bibles have been sold?! You any idea how much paper and money they could've saved if only you had pointed out the error of their ways?! |
|
|
| -=Kotten=- |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Funny cos I was always under the impression the Old Testament was part of the Bible!
You should have told them! You any idea how many Bibles have been sold?! You any idea how much paper and money they could've saved if only you had pointed out the error of their ways?! |
The old testament is gods covenant with Abraham and the people of Israel. The new testament is gods covenant with believers through christ.
The early Christians decided that while Judaism was the true revelation of God and the foundation of Christianity, Christianity represented a new era of God's dealings with the world so the extensive body of Jewish law was no longer binding. Religious principles and ideas (such as the notion of a sovereign God who is active in human history) are appropriated; religious practices (such as dietary laws and sacrificial routines) are not.
Thus the Old Testament is useful and edifying in that it tells of the true God's actions in Israel, but it does not carry the same level of authority or relevance as the New Testament. |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS
Good point. This topic has helped me understand why my views to Atheism and Nationalism are getting stronger by the day. |
Good note. Both things that I've noticed too. |
|
|
| atbell |
| quote: | Originally posted by -=Kotten=-
But this is exactly what I said. :rolleyes:
Islam upholds the old traditions of moses while chrstians dont... |
My mistake, I mis-read your post then. |
|
|
| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
But my whole point is it's bloody irrelevant what it says in a holy text! Followers will choose to interpret it as they want in order to fulfil whatever current aims they have!
If it doesn't say Christians can kill non-believers, then on what pretext were the Crusaders operating under? They went to the Middle East and killed non-believers and were willing (and wanted) to die in the process because that would guarantee them eternity in heaven!
The fact is, you can come to any conclusion you want to about ANY religion based on selective quotes from their holy books and by the actions of some of their followers throughout history and in the modern day. Seriously, can't you see that? I can write post after post about how Jews and Christians are evil because of what their books say and what "they" have gotten up to in the past and present, just as you could (and are) doing the same about Muslims. You would spend post after post defending the Christians and Jews because you'd claim I was selectively quoting and that the examples I give of them being evil (like the Crusades above, for example) were not representative of the entire Christian and Jewish faiths, or that they did not relate to their holy texts. I'd laugh because I would see the irony in your arguments, but I have a feeling you'd never be able to see the irony yourself... |
I know what you're trying to say, it's YOU who's missing MY point.
The comparison between The Crusades (which were wars against Muslim armies, originally anyway) and the modern day nonsense in the Quran is an unfair one.
Regardless of what you say, nowhere in the Bible does it directly say to go and kill unbelievers. It was ALWAYS God's task to do so, not people.
In the Quran it is the opposite, it IS the peoples' duty to kill unbelievers. The fact that most of them do not is a good thing, my point was that their theology is doomed to fail because the side that is theologically correct (people we call extremists) are eventually going to be completely isolated while the people who aren't "extremists" are going to be ignoring a vital part of their theology just because they don't like it.
I agree with your points about holy books being used to damn entire religions as well as your points about how they've been used for things in the past that they are no longer used for.
My point was that Islam faces a unique problem in that the extremists are actually theologically correct when it comes to their actions, the moderates are in fact wrong, and it's ironic that to function in a global society Islam needs to be more moderate while their theology strongly demands jihad and other tactics that would be considered murder and extremism to the rest of us non-muslims. |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
It was ALWAYS God's task to do so, not people. |
There is no God. Therefore, it was ALWAYS the people that decided to kill the people they did. The Bible was written BY those people...
| quote: | | My point was that Islam faces a unique problem in that the extremists are actually theologically correct |
I fail to see how you are any authority on the matter! Are you saying imams who have studied the Koran for years are incorrect?!
It's also worth pointing out that none of the "founding fathers" of Political Islam were actually religious scholars... |
|
|
|
|
