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North Korean Rocket Test (pg. 3)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
It isn't north korea that is breaking the armistice
"15. This Armistice Agreement shall apply to all opposing naval forces, which navalforces shall respect the water contiguous to the Demilitarized Zone and to the land area of Korea under the military control of the opposing side, and shall not engage in blockade of any kind of Korea"
The ship searches and sanctions directly violate the armistice - as such "are" acts of war. North Korea is fully justified in action as per causi belli to engage in war against the united nations. |
:rolleyes: first off, inspecting ships in international waters is not a "blockade"
second, the Security Council has every right to do what they need to if the Norks are in violation of treaty...which the Norks, indeed, are. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
stopping ships in water IS a blockage |
your grey matter is a blockage |
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| Magnetonium |
North Korea has violated countless United Nations resolutions, has sent renegade units / commandos to attack South Korea on numerous occassions since 1953 - thats right, violated South Korea's territorial waters numerous times, exploded two nuclear devices, passed on and wants to pass nuclear technology to such rogue states as Syria and Iran, threatens its neighbours with military action / agression, etc. and we are supposed to sit there, kneel and beg for mercy to a regime which oppresses and starves its own people to death? Give me a break.
North Korea is passing dangerous technology and equipment to rogue states, and for the sake of world security we need to stop and inspect every single of their dam ships before one day one of those nuclear devices may end up blowing up at a public place in USA or elsewhere - passed by North Korea, and utilized by a rogue regime or a terrorist group. For as long as North Korea is refusing to co-operate and dismantle its "peaceful" nuclear program.
It may already be too late, but we cant cave it to the retards who are making the world a dangerous place. North Korea won't attack because NOONE will support it. You think China will come to its rescue this time around? You think China wants a war this time? I dont think so.
We need to stop footing with North Korea, because we have been for a while now and they noticed it and so now they are trying to be agressive. Enough of that .
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
classic, you can't attack the words so you attack the person.
just admit it, you are wrong. |
when you give me the crap you just pull out of your ass like that, i have little recourse.
a blockade is the denial of ALL communication with the outside world including shipping, trucking, air traffic, radio and satellite frequencies. EVERYTHING. nothing gets in. nothing gets out.
inspecting ships LEAVING ports out of North Korea for UN sanctioned contraband is not a blockade.
aside from little ole me, there are about 10 million people in Seoul that will tell you to go yourself and your "blockade".
listen to Magnetorium.
admit it, you just hate Amerikkka:o |
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| Chryz707 |
The Key to success with North Korea is China, if you get China to apply pressure then they will comply. Its a fore gone conclusion that we can make these under the table deals, but the fact remain that NK has blown up 2 nukes... I say we ensure some heave Sanctions are applied and blockade any shipments leaving NK... Weapons sold will be returned to thier home port. The world really needs to get together and say ok, you want to play, lets play, have a nice winter with no fuel oil, food, anything else they may need that is brought in including Humanitaria aid... Stop everything going in and out... thats how we get them to play ball... Also when they say they are going to play, they have to make all the moves first... So we arent wasting our time...
I certainly know Korea isnt ready to be re-unified, but one thing is for sure, the Chinese dont want America on the border of China. China, Russia, and S. Korea wont be able to handle the exodus of Rufugees... It would be a catastrophe. It would look much different than when the Berlin wall fell thats for sure... |
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| Chryz707 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
North Korea has violated countless United Nations resolutions
Kindly list these - note N. Korea was not a member of the UN until 1991.
"has sent renegade units / commandos to attack South Korea on numerous occassions since 1953 - thats right, violated South Korea's territorial waters numerous times"
List these occurences.
"exploded two nuclear devices"
So what?! The russians, americans, french, british, pakis, indians, and others have all done this who the f*** cares?
" passed on and wants to pass nuclear technology to such rogue states as Syria and Iran"
So what, why limit knowledge?
"threatens its neighbours with military action / agression"
same stuff is happening on the other end - it ain't one sided, read the news from both sides.
"oppresses and starves its own people to death"
Who needs to do it themselves when they have the world to do it. What do you think sanctions are?
Same thing happened in Iraq, you are only being fed propaganda and you haven't got a clue all the bs that japan and the US has done to North Korea.
"North Korea is passing dangerous technology and equipment to rogue states"
What the hell is a rougue state -- one that doesn't obey every command of the US? Wake up, people are entitled to self rule. Nations shouldn't be forced by the barrle of a gun to fall into the dictatorship of the sons of the allies of WWII there is something called independance, this world shoulnd't be a military dictatorship of the UN.
"world security we need to stop and inspect every single of their dam ships"
why not give them their legal rights and not deprive them of others.. I doubt you are keen on north koreans inspecting US ships as it feels like it, what about a nimits.. guess what they hold them bombs.. the US historically is the only nation to use them in war.. and has committed countless war crimes.. yet you feel secure with them having one of the worlds largest stockpiles?
Every nation deserves the right to have both a peaceful and military nuclear program.. theres is no ONLY this nation deserves it.. frankly every nation deserves it. the us has had countless nuclear incidences.. so don't start to think that just because they have more doens't make them safer the opposite is true. I've read of numerous nuclear security breaches in the US, even more in Russia... don't even start to think North Korea isn't safe with its weapons, it has a better record than both the US and Russia. (the two countries with the most warheads)
The UN and US has been doing anything but footing, they have been biding their time in a 50 year long siege, Iraq was only 10 years, none the less do not be mistaken, North Korea has not been the guilty party.
Outline your incidences. I'll counter with violations of North Korean security and air space, and covert ops by british SAS and US forces for intel purposes, air and sea based. |
Not everycountry is responsible enought to have Nukes... Thats a fact... It shakes up the balance in regions and countries will bully eachother on it... |
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| Magnetonium |
The question is - which agreement than North Korea agreed to abide to since its inception and has since not since reneged on? I cant think of one. They agreed to dismantle their nuclear program in exchange for food / supplies. They now reversed that. The article I posted previously clearly mentions that.
Oh, and as for incursions by "peaceful" North Korean troops:
| quote: |
Incursions
Since demarcation, the DMZ has had numerous cases of incursions by the North Koreans, although the North Korean government never acknowledges direct responsibility for any of these incidents. These include:
* 17 January 1968: 31 North Korean commandos crossed the border disguised as South Korean soldiers in an attempt to assassinate President Park Chung Hee at The Blue House. The failed mission resulted in 29 commandos killed, one committed suicide, and the last captured. Two South Korean policemen and five civilians were killed by the commandos. Other reports indicated as many as 68 South Koreans killed and 66 wounded, including about 24 civilians. Three Americans were killed and another three wounded in an attempt to prevent the commandos from escaping back via the DMZ[7].
* October 1968: 130 North Korean commandos entered the Ulchin and Samcheok areas in Gangwon-do. Eventually 110 of them were killed, 7 were captured and 13 escaped.
* March 1969: Six North Korean infiltrators crossed the border near Chumunjin, Gangwon-do and killed a South Korean policeman on guard duty.
* October 1969: North Korean infiltrators killed four United States soldiers near the southern boundary of the DMZ.
* April 1970: Three North Korean infiltrators were killed and five South Korean soldiers wounded at an encounter in Kumchon, Gyeonggi-do.
* November 1974: The first of what would be a series of North Korean infiltration tunnels under the DMZ was discovered.
* March 1975: The second North Korean infiltration tunnel was discovered.
* June 1976: Three North Korean infiltrators and six South Korean soldiers were killed in the eastern sector south of the DMZ. Another six South Korean soldiers were injured.
* 18 August 1976: The Axe Murder Incident results in the death of two U.S. soldiers and injuries to another four U.S. soldiers and five South Korean soldiers. The incident may not be technically considered an "infiltration" however, as it took place in a neutral zone of the Joint Security Area.
* October 1978: The third North Korean infiltration tunnel was discovered.
* October 1979: Three North Korean agents attempting to infiltrate the eastern sector of the DMZ were intercepted, killing one of the agents.
* March 1980: Three North Korean infiltrators were killed attempting to enter the south across the estuary of the Han River.
* March 1981: Three North Korean infiltrators spotted at Kumhwa, Gangwon-do, one was killed.
* July 1981: Three North Korean infiltrators were killed in the upper stream of Imjin River.
* May 1982: Two North Korean infiltrators were spotted on the east coast, one was killed.
* March 1990: The fourth North Korean infiltration tunnel was discovered, in what may be a total of 17 tunnels in all.
* May 1992: Three North Korean infiltrators dressed in South Korean uniforms were killed at Cheorwon, Gangwon-do. Three South Koreans were also wounded.
* October 1995: Two North Korean infiltrators were intercepted at Imjin River. One was killed, the other escaped.
* April 1996: Several hundred North Korean armed troops entered the Joint Security Area and elsewhere on three occasions in violation of the Korean armistice agreement.
* May 1996: Seven North Korean soldiers crossed the DMZ but withdrew when fired upon by South Korean troops.
* April 1997: Five North Korean soldiers cross the military demarcation line's Cheorwon sector and fired at South Korean positions.
* July 1997: Fourteen North Korean soldiers crossed the military demarcation line, causing a 23-minute exchange of heavy gunfire.
* May 26, 2006: Two North Korean soldiers enter the DMZ and crossed into South Korea. They returned after South Korean soldiers fired warning shots.
* October 7, 2006: South Korean soldiers fire warning shots after North Korean soldiers cross briefly into their side of the border.
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| quote: |
Incursion tunnels
Soldiers from the United Nations Command on observational operations in South Korea. (Circa1997).
Starting on November 15, 1974, the South discovered four tunnels leading under the DMZ. The first of the tunnels was discovered by a South Korean Army patrol, noticing steam rising from the ground. The initial discovery was met with machine gun fire from North Korean soldiers. Five days later, during a subsequent exploration of this tunnel, U.S. Navy Commander Robert M. Ballinger and ROK Marine Corps Major Kim Hah Chul were killed in an explosion triggered from North Korea, along with the wounding of six additional United Nations Command personnel, five American and one South Korean. This first tunnel was about 3 by 4 feet (0.9 m × 1.2 m) and extended over 1,000 meters (3,300 ft) beyond the Military Demarcation Line (MDL). When the first tunnel was discovered, it was reinforced with concrete slabs, electric power and lighting, weapons storage and sleeping areas and had a narrow gauge railway with carts, capable of allowing approximately 2,000 soldiers per hour to traverse it. The second was discovered on March 19, 1975, of similar length, between 50 and 160 meters (160 and 520 ft) below ground, but was larger than the first, approximately 2 by 2 meters (6.6 ft × 6.6 ft). The third tunnel was discovered on October 17, 1978. Unlike the previous two, the third tunnel was discovered following a tip off from a North Korean defector. This tunnel is about 1,600 meters (5,200 ft) long and about 150 meters (490 ft) below ground. A fourth tunnel was discovered on March 3, 1990. It is almost identical in structure to the second and the third tunnels.[10]
The tunnels were dug by North Korea and are presumed for use by the military as an invasion route. Each tunnel is large enough to permit the passage of an entire division of infantry in one hour. Due to its narrow build, neither tanks nor any other vehicle can pass the tunnel. All the tunnels run in a north-south direction and do not branch off. The planning for the tunnels got progressively more advanced (for example, the third tunnel slopes upward slightly as it progresses southward, so that water does not stagnate). The orientation of the blasting lines within each one indicates that North Korea dug the tunnels. Upon their discovery, the North claimed that they were for coal mining; however, no coal can be found in the tunnels, which are dug through granite, but some of the tunnel walls were at some point painted black to give the appearance of coal.
Today, it is possible to visit some of the tunnels as part of guided tours from the South. Some of the famous tunnel tours include the Third Tunnel of Aggression which was discovered in the 1970s. |
| quote: |
Incidents in other areas
* June 1969: North Korean agent reached Huksan Island, resulting in 15 killed.
* August 1975: Two North Korean infiltrators intercepted at Gochang County, Jeollabuk-do kills one infiltrator, two South Korean soldiers and wounds another two South Korean soldiers.
* November 1978: Three North Korean agents killed two South Korean civilians in Hongseong, one civilian in Gongju, Chungcheongnam-do and another civilian at Osan, Gyeonggi-do.
* November 1980: Three North Korean infiltrators and one South Korean civilian were killed at Whenggando, Jeollanam-do. Six others were wounded.
* December 1980: Three North Korean infiltrators and two South Korean soldiers were killed off the southern coast of Gyeongsangnam-do. Two other South Korean soldiers were wounded.
* September 1984: A North Korean infiltrator killed two civilians and wounded another at Daegu before committing suicide.
* October 1995: Two North Korean infiltrators were intercepted at Buyeo County. One was killed, the other captured.
* 17 September 1996: 26 North Korean military personnel landed on the east coast near Jeongdongjin, 20 kilometres south of Gangneung, Gangwon-do from a disabled North Korean submarine. Out of these, 11 were killed by North Korean commandos from the submarine presumably in a bid to save the rest. 13 were killed by South Korean soldiers as they tried to make their way back over the DMZ over the next 49 days, one was captured and one escaped. 13 South Korean soldiers and 4 civilians were killed[10], and five others wounded, including an off-duty ROK soldier strangled by the escaping infiltrators. North Korea threatened to retaliate over the incident, and in October 1996, a South Korean diplomat, Choi Duk Keun, was found poisoned in Vladivostok by a substance similar to that carried on the submarine. By 29 December, however, the North issued an official statement expressing "deep regret" over the submarine incident, although it did not issue a direct apology. In return, the South Korean government returned the cremated remains of the infiltrators to the North via Panmunjom on 30 December. The beached submarine remains at Jeongdongjin, where it has since been turned into an outdoor exhibit. Investigations in the South over the intrusion resulted in twenty ROK officers and soldiers punished for "negligence of duty" and the dismissal of a lieutenant general and a major general. A taxi driver who first spotted the intruders and alerted the authorities was given a hefty reward[11].
[edit] Maritime incidents
* June 1981: A North Korean spy boat was sunk off Seosan, Chungcheongnam-do, with nine agents killed and one captured.
* October 1985: A North Korean spy ship was sunk by the South Korean navy off the coast of Busan.
* May 1996: Five North Korean naval patrol craft entered South Korean waters in the west coast and withdrew after a four-hour confrontation with Southern forces. Another incident in June 1996 saw three North Korean naval patrol crafts intruding for three-hours in the same area.
* June 1997: Three North Korean patrol boats entered South Korean waters in the Yellow Sea, firing at South Korean patrol boats.
* 22 June 1998: A North Korean midget submarine was found caught in South Korean fishing nets in South Korean waters. All nine submarine crew were found dead in an apparent group suicide. North Korea blasted the South for causing the death of the crew and demanded the return of the bodies and submarine on 27 June. South Korean President Kim Dae Jung asked for the North to "admit responsibility and take reasonable measures" in response.
* July 1998: A dead North Korean frogman was found with paraphernalia on a beach south of the DMZ.
* November 1998: A North Korean spy boat entered South Korean waters near Ganghwa Island but escaped upon detection.
* December 1998: A North Korean semisubmersible boat was sunk near Busan after an exchange with the South Korean navy. A North Korean frogman's body was found near the site.
* June 1999: A nine-day confrontation was sparked when several North Korean ships intruded into disputed waters near the Northern Limit Line on the Yellow Sea. A firefight erupted on 15 June 1999, sinking a North Korean torpedo boat and damaging five others. Two South Korean vessels were lightly damaged. North Korea issues a warning that violent exchanges would continue if the disputed waters were to continue being intruded by South Korea or the United States.
* 9 April 2001: North Korean patrol boats entered South Korean waters briefly over the Northern Limit Line but retreated when challenged by the South Korean Navy. Similar incidents were reported on February 5, March 3 and April 10. 12 maritime intrusions were reported in total in 2001.
* 5 January 2002: North Korean patrol boats continue to infiltrate into South Korean waters, with another craft spotted off Yonpyong Island in the Yellow Sea.
* 29 June 2002: North Korean patrol boats crossed the Northern Limit Line and fired at a South Korean patrol boat, provoking a firefight which killed four South Korean military personnel and an unknown number of North Koreans.
[edit] Air incidents
* 19 February 2003: A North Korean fighter jet entered South Korean airspace over the Yellow Sea, the first since 1983. Six South Korean fighter planes responded, and the North Korean plane retreated after two minutes.
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ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.
EDIT:
Also see:
North Korean abductions of Japanese
North Korean abductions of South Koreans
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| Chryz707 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
"have a nice winter with no fuel oil, food, anything else they may need that is brought in including Humanitaria aid"
Twisted prick, you are more convoluted than they are. First off making the populace suffer is not an adequette response. Why not build your defences and nurture cooperation rather than a more fundamental state. You ever lived without basic needs, why don't you try it and see if you'd wish it on someone else.
Stop agitating defend your self, and stop depriving the North. Is the North doing anything to the US or S. Korea NO. so why the hell are they overriding north korean sovreignty and shipping THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO DO SO.
THEY ARE MAKING WAR. |
Hey Revolutions starts at home, get the people pissed off enough and they will turn around... I dont think any humanitarian aid should be given what so ever. Let China Annex North Korea... lil Kim and his crooked clan! |
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| Magnetonium |
North Koreans are starving in a similar way that people in Zimbabwe are starving. Both countries once had the capability to feed themselves. But because of authoritarian regime with retarded thinking and actions has doomed their people. Heck, I remember when Soviets IMPORTED Canadian grain in 1960s.
North Korea built a large dam some time ago and in process flooded large areas of the few available arable lands it has. How smart is that?
They spend a lot of money on military and agression, yet dont have enough to feed themselves. They have noone else to blame but themselves.
Surely Americans / CIA may have been involved in some covert activities in the past - but so did North Koreans (North Korea INVADED South Korea in 1950, heck, thats a big one), but today its North Korea who is threatening its neighbours. Economic blockade is done because North Korea is STILL trying to develop nuclear weapons technology and is not interested in a peace treaty on equal terms. Well, considering that its a communist dictatorship - thats perfectly understandable.
William, I dont understand why are you trying to defend the North Korean regime. There's nothing to defend, absolutely, and appeasing them WILL NOT achieve peace or security. North Korea thinks it has an upper hand - go figure, its a communist dictatorship. Oh, and worse - a STALINIST dictatorship.
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
listen to Magnetorium.
admit it, you just hate Amerikkka:o |
Agree with me or you hate America!!:haha:
What an utterly stupid argument. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
Korea has graciously accepted food aid, likewise, it has paid for that food aid by their foreign assets being siezed. It is difficult to buy foreign foodstuffs when your international bank accounts have been closed due to threats made by the United States due to "money laundering", which is an unsubstantiated claim, AND actually traced to south koreans, NOT north koreans. |
Ever heard of Juche? The Norks want to be isolated from global trade.
| quote: | | I think you are mistaken that it doesn't have arable lands, almost all land is arable. Humanure itself can be processed to usable soil. I've studied sustainable development and I have to say that North Korea very well could develope an agricultural capacity which is sufficient to feed its whole population. Also many nations have built stupid dams such as Egypt, the United States, and others. Dams are usually bad for nature but good for hydroelectric production. Good dam management can eliviate these issues though, if they implmented silt redeposition, or made watering canals. |
The amount of arable land is insignificant when they rely on collective farming which is made of nothing but FAIL.
| quote: | Well if you had NATO, Japan, etc.. all looking to invade you with no measures of peace, would you not arm to defend yourself. 1.1 Million people may seem like a lot but the united states alone has 1.5 Million personnel. This is more than "this lots of money on military and agression. The US has consistenly spent over 30% of its economy on its military, while North Korea only spends about 16%
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Wrong, the US spends 4.04% (2007) of its GDP on the military. The reason the Norks spend so much on their military is so their Stalinist regime can remain in power. The regime also needs an outside enemy to focus the people's attention on outside enemies, instead of the real enemy, their government.
| quote: | | and why are they not allowed, they arn't a member of the non proliferation treaty. Developing nuclear weapons is a nations sovereign right to develope whatever military technology it would like. The US alone takes this line, as it doesn't sign weapons limitation treaties either. |
They are allowed. Why do you think they'v done it? The world simply doesn't want them to have nuclear weapons because of the nature of the regime. Additionally, doesn't it bother you that the NK government would rather spend billions on a nuclear weapons program, rather than food for its own people? |
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