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North Korean Rocket Test (pg. 4)
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
I think you are mistaken that it doesn't have arable lands, almost all land is arable.
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Too bad I have to use Wikipedia, but 14% is not very much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_North_Korea
Resources and land use
Natural resources include coal, lead, tungsten, zinc, graphite, magnesite, iron ore, copper, gold, pyrites, salt, fluorspar and hydropower.
[edit] Land use
arable land: 14%
permanent crops: 2%
permanent pastures: 0%
forests and woodland: 61%
other: 23%
Data: (1993 est.)
OOOOOOOOPS: Americans are to blame for this one. There goes that 14% I was talking about ... Gotta love Stalinism.
North Korea's environment crisis
| quote: |
The UN and officials in Pyongyang have agreed the first-ever assessment of the state of the North Korean environment.
The report was written by North Korea's national co-ordinating council for the environment, together with the UN's Development and Environment Programmes.
The head of Unep said Pyongyang had shown its readiness to work with the world community to safeguard nature.
The report lists a catalogue of neglect and over-exploitation of resources, and says time is short to put things right.
The report, DPR Korea: State Of The Environment 2003, was produced by officials from 20 government and academic agencies, with training and guidance from the two UN programmes.
Future collaboration
It was compiled as a result of a visit to Pyongyang in 2000 by Unep's executive director, Dr Klaus Toepfer.
He and Dr Ri Jung Sik, secretary-general of the national co-ordinating council, have now signed a framework agreement on joint activities to improve environmental protection.
The report covers five areas: forests, water, air, land and biodiversity. It says the most urgent priority is the degradation of forest resources.
Bulldozers in mud Unep
Soils are failing and crops dwindling
Forests cover 74% of North Korea, but almost all are on steep slopes. In the last decade the forests have declined in extent and quality.
The report says this is because of timber production, a doubling of firewood consumption, wild fires, insect attacks associated with drought, and conversion of forest to farmland.
On water it says demand is rising "with economic development and the improvement in standards of living", and calls for urgent investment in domestic sewage and industrial water treatment.
It notes that large quantities of untreated wastewater and sewage are discharged into rivers, and says some diseases related to water use "are surging".
Air quality, the report says, "is deteriorating, especially in urban and industrial areas". Energy consumption is expected to double over 30 years, from almost 48m tonnes of oil equivalent in 1990 to 96 million tonnes in 2020.
North Korea's use of coal is projected to increase five times from 2005 to 2020, underlining, the report says, "the urgent need for clean coal combustion and exhaust gas purification technologies, energy efficiency, and renewable energy alternatives."
On land use, the report says self-sufficiency in food production has been a national policy aim in North Korea.
Changed priorities
But it continues: "Major crop yields fell by almost two thirds during the 1990s due to land degradation caused by loss of forest, droughts, floods and tidal waves, acidification due to over-use of chemicals, as well as shortages of fertiliser, farm machinery and oil.
Birds on the fishing grounds Unep
Fishing off the Korean coast
"Vulnerable soils require an expansion of restorative policies and practices such as flood protection works, tree planting, terracing and use of organic fertilisers.
"Recognising such issues, [the country] adjusted its legal and administrative framework, designating environmental protection as a priority over all productive practices and identifying it as a prerequisite for sustainable development."
North Korea is home to several critically endangered species, among them the Amur leopard, the Asiatic black bear and the Siberian tiger.
Squaring the circle
It has signed up to international environmental agreements such as the Convention on Biological Diversity, though the report notes a continuing "contradiction between protection and development", which it says is being overcome.
In a wider context, the report says: "The conflict between socio-economic progress and a path of truly sustainable development is likely to be further aggravated unless emerging issues can be settled in time."
It says environmental laws and regulations need to be formulated or upgraded, management mechanisms improved, financial investment encouraged, and research focused on priorities.
Dr Toepfer said North Korea "has shown its willingness to engage with the global community to safeguard its environmental resources, and we must respond so it can meet development goals in a sustainable manner." |
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| DJ Damerchi |
Will, how the hell do you spew out that bs 30 percent figure with such confidence, you think no one is going to know? The largest percentages of gdp for military expenditures are various gulf arab nations and these figures are only slightly over 10 percent.
This issue is very important to the UN, and the DMZ has always been on thin Ice. I thought this proxy war was very just for the US+Nato. Even though the Norks were more prosperous than the South early on after the war(up until the 70's), look at the situation now. Had the UN left South Korea when they were surrounded in Pusan, the whole peninsula would have been a ty barren wasteland today...I think the UN has pride in what they were able to accomplish for the South. . The War managed to end to no nukes being used, and that really set a good precedent for the future. Knowing how the 38th parallel is a ticking time bomb, and has been since the stalemate, when the Norks talk about discarding the armistice this should be taken with a high degree concern.
I am not sure about the legality of what you can do while the ship is in International waters, but since NK is closed off from trade, ships flowing around have reason to arise suspicion. I know that Interpol is permitted to chase weapons smugglers, and if its done in international waters its all gravy if they conduct a search. Not a blockade at all. Besides, NK blockades itself, the point is rather moot in this scenario..its not like their missing out on free trade. |
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| DJ Damerchi |
what does that mean? 650 billion is what percentage of 14 trillion?
not 30 percent. Not even close. Your own post contradicts itself. |
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| DJ Damerchi |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
real GDP?
Real GDP is calculated as prices in the "base year" times quantities in the current year, such that production is held constant for the value of currency[1]. |
and real GDP is adjusted for changes in price and inflation to determine the purchasing power...and the US is used as the standard unit to contrast other markets in the world so I don't see what you are getting at.
| quote: | Look it up I can site multiple sources stating 2009's military expenditures have reached 50% of reserve funding, and ammount for over 30% of federal government expenditures. Bear in mind the US dollar has no "real value" it is a float currency. Also bear in mind the "ammount spent" by North Korea is based on US or other organizations valuation of a currency which isn't actively traded, rather than productive force.
http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/bud...date/update.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...e_United_States |
listen man..its rather simple. the US has a PPP gdp of 14 trillion or so. Military expenditures are less than 5 percent of the GDP. You are going on about percentages of reserve funding and government expenditures, and you are forgetting that this this figure is a percentage of GDP. C+G+I+net exports mate.
| quote: | | South Korea has a lot of problems now - bear in mind the US and NATO subsidized South Korea's military expenditures - and they have about 600,000 troops... but with more technology. Their spending is MUCH higher than North Korea. |
South Korea is 3rd in Asia in the Human Development Index, 4 counting Hong Kong. We all have our problems. Don't even compare the two. South Korea is a miracle knowing what lies north of the 38th.
| quote: | | This was never about South Korea, it was about the US and its allies stoping the spread of Russian Influence - as South Korea was US SPHERE of control due to joint agreemnts by the US and Russia at postdam this was more about "maintaining" puppet states in North Korea and South Korea allied with Russia and the US - which still remains to this day. |
I mentioned that it was a proxy war, and a just one at that. the 5 year interim agreement with America and Moscow wasn't working out, initially there was a possibility of a unified Korea with both influences. As officials under the Japanese colonial rule came right back into power, the South Koreans became extremely fed up with the Americans and started to riot like hell all over the place. The Americans then decided to abandon their agreements to back a right winged Synghman Rhee who aimed to remove communism, even though it meant war for them-a war in which they(americans) personally would suffer immensely.
| quote: | | woulda coulda whatif.. there is no way to know so that is dribble. |
If they left after they were surrounded in Pusan, the "what if" is a very realistic possibility. They are all Koreans, and it is a peninsula, allowing for isolation. The DPRK encapsulating the entire peninsula today would have been a very likely outcome if the UN abandoned their ops.
| quote: | | What was accomplished for the south - a constant threat of obliteration? |
this is a stupid question, are you ing kidding me?
| quote: | | It isn't North Korea that is talking about this, they arn't "abandoning it" they are clearly stating that South Korea and the US are engaging or intending to commit illegal acts of war against North Korea. You can say many things like North Korea threatens others.. fact is the US is constantly spouting "use of military force" against North Korea. You just choose not to look at the whole picture and only aim to purport to the west. |
as far as I'm concerned, its just words right now, so I don't support any kind of retaliation, or preemptive attack. And the illegality of the US+clandestine tactics is a separate issue, and I very well don't aim to purport to the west like you claim i do...You have to understand that the North can do substantial damage to the Seoul/Incheon area very quickly, so this is something that should be taken lightly.
| quote: | | Is North Korea a member of Interpol? If they arn't they don't superceed Jurisdiction of any specific state. While member states of interpol can acceed to its operations - non member states have full sovereignty and are in no way subjugated by the organization. |
NK is the only mainland state to not be members of Interpol. As far as international waters are concerned, sorry, this is not under their jurisdiction anymore. Apologies to
Samoa
Palau
Solomon Islands
Kiribati
Federated States of Micronesia
Tuvalu
Vanuatu
North Korea
lol.
Whatever measly trade North Korea is engaging in, it is in a sense tapping out, going against its own platform. Things will never be the same after the Soviets were over with. I doubt that the people will benefit from whatever they are trying to trade. Kim Jong Il is a sick bastard that does not care about the welfare of his people. He is the one that starves them. How can you keep supporting this prick? This situation is a clear example of how US foreign policy was a success...and why communism is testicles.
How bout this Will, we'll drop you off with a parachute in your beloved NK, and lets see you try to get your way out that pickle. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Agree with me or you hate America!!:haha:
What an utterly stupid argument. |
i stopped taking ashley seriously a while back. thats my argument and i'm sticking to it.
for the record i would never use that argument with you. you're at least..."three times" as smart as he is;)
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
10 years ago this may have been the case, but North Korea has started liberalizing their economy - opening open air markets, capitalist zones, corporate tourist areas, and opened the country up to its allies. |
None of that matters. The Norks want to be isolated. Juche is the state religion and just because they open up one area for tourists or one area for joint industry with the south (WHICH THEY SHUT DOWN) doesn't mean they'r changing. You whine and complain about sanctions but in reality, the Norks are sanctioning themselves.
| quote: | | The mennonites have done this for 100+ years and now own a huge chunk of this provinces farming - as collectivist farmers they have done incredibly well, and even so without modern technologies. |
The memmonites do so at their own free will. Forced collective farming is not the same thing so don't even attempt to paint them in the same light.
| quote: | | On the contrary GMO, and petrochemical farming has made land dependant on chemicals to function, it has also contributed to the destruction of the natural environment. Corporate farming, has jepordized the food source. What is "wrong" about collective farming. I really have no clue what you are talking about. |
Are you honestly preaching the virtues of forced collective farming over free market corporate farming? That's laughable. What's wrong with collective farming? Nothing if you do it out of your own free will. Too bad North Korea isn't that type of collective farming.
| quote: | | Cite your source. Everywhere I've looked has indicated 50% of federal reserve expenditures (800 Billion) and what is equivilent to 30+% of overall government expenditures. |
I will cite my source when you start citing yours...
It's pretty obvious. The US military gets about $500 billion. The US GDP is about $12 billion. Do the math and you get a figure around 4-5%...
| quote: | | and the US spends on military because? |
Uh, for the same reason every country spends on its military?? The US isn't starving its people so it can have a military, so don't even go there...
| quote: | | Bogus the ideal of communism is to be a global movement. |
What? Are you high?
| quote: | | Who is the world, I could frankly care less, and they seem to want them... so that is hardly the world. |
The world, the UN, China, Russia, the vast majority of countries. Nobody wants to North Korea with nuclear weapons.
| quote: | | I think that food growth is free, all it needs is people devoted to it.. these artificial prices are non existence... money is imaginary. It is is not one or the other. There are plenty of people in north korea to do both. A lot of the waste economy is removed in socialist systems. Does it bother me, no. |
Bull. A country as small as north korea does have to choose food or nukes. They can't run deficits because nobody gives them credit. They can't have guns and butter too.
| quote: | what do these figures tell you?
1 United States 651,163,000,000 2009[3][4]
2 People's Republic of China 70,411,404,000 2009[5]
3 France 66,876,100,000 2008-2009[6]
4 United Kingdom 62,200,400,000 FY 2009-10[7]
5 Japan 48,860,000,000 2008[8]
6 Germany 45,930,000,000 2008[9]
7 Italy 40,050,000,000 2008[10]
8 Russian Federation 39,600,000,000 2009[11]
9 India 32,700,000,000 2009-2010[12]
10 Saudi Arabia 31,050,000,000 2008[13]
11 Turkey 30,936,000,000 2008[14]
12 South Korea 28,500,000,000 2008[15]
13 Brazil 23,972,836,012 2009[16]
14 Australia 23,040,500,000 2009-10[17]
15 Spain 18,974,000,000 2008 (est.)[18]
16 Iraq 17,900,000,000 2008
17 Canada 16,061,762,400 2009-2010[19]
18 Israel 13,300,000,000 2009[20]
19 Netherlands 12,000,000,000 2008[21]
20 Poland 11,791,000,000 2009[22]
21 Republic of China (Taiwan) 10,500,000,000 2008
22 Greece 7,934,000,000 2007[23]
23 Pakistan 7,800,000,000 2008
24 Singapore 7,600,000,000 2009[24]
25 Colombia 7,480,000,000 2007[25]
26 Sweden 6,309,137,714 2007[26]
27 Iran 6,300,000,000 2005[27]
28 Mexico 6,070,000,000 2006[28][29]
29 Norway 5,725,000,000 2007
30 North Korea 5,500,000,000 2005 |
They tell me absolutely nothing. Just a bunch of countries and large numbers next to them.
| quote: | | The US is not only spending more than it has but has put about 50,000$ of debt on each and every American. How many americans would starve to death if suddently they had 50,000$ less dollars in their pockets? |
SO what if the US is in debt? The US isn't starving its people to it can have a strong military.
| quote: | | Money is very real in America - but when the state provides for your basic needs it is somewhat secondary. |
Too bad the NK state only provides for the military and party elites. Everyone else gets a nice big, "STFU or to the gulag with you!"
| quote: | | North Korea doesn't need to reduce its production and training of military - it needs to increase its food production programs. Get that straight, the money isn't real. It is a mechanism of trade, capitalism is NOT the only way. |
The North Koreans don't have the capacity to feed its own people even if they do increase food production. Got it? And capitalism is by far the best mechanism for any economy to operate on. Forced collective farming has always led to waste, underproduction, and corruption. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Too bad the NK state only provides for the military and party elites. Everyone else gets a nice big, "STFU or to the gulag with you!"
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:stongue:
Yeah, and cars are such a rarity in NK, along with electricity, luxuries, human rights and freedom. They got their first pizzeria recently and a fast food joint - a sign of improvement of sorts. Party leaders need to be spoiled a bit every now and then! :toothless |
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| Capitalizt |
communism vs capitalism at night (actual satellite image):
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
light pollution sucks.
I'd prefer to see the stars rather than the ISS to see the mass energy output needlessly
What you also see in south korea is the mass overcrowding in south korea and urban blight and sprawl.60 million people in a country the size of Portugal.
Portugal itself only has 10 million - south korea has 6x's that number. |
Yea, north Korea is a people's paradise. No electricity, no over crowding. What a great place to live. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
I disagree I think that there is a level of willingness to trade and cooperate,they just don't want to be mistreated and used. They'd like to see gain, and maitenence of their society. North Koreans like to have a good time too,they just have different tastes from some people. The US isn't exactly friendly unless you give them money, they won't let you into their country unless they are gaining from it. Russians and Chinese are very welcome in Korea and can travel because they don't represent as large a risk to the social order. Americans can be outright rude and have drastically different tastes, so obviously they represent a great chance of social disruption due to difference in values. Korea is open for tourism, there are just different rules depending on the level of peace.
Both Westerners and Communist countries are able to travel in North Korea, but they need to do so through a tourism agency. Russia has similar rules, however not quite as strict. |
WTF are you talking about? Tourists must have government minders for s sake. The NK regime's primary concern is staying power. Trade and cooperation and all this crap you'r spewing is totally antithetical to the NK regime. Trade tells the people there is a better life on the outside. Don't want that. Cooperation is against the NK philosophy of Juche (self-reliance).
| quote: | | I think you are partially wrong, the North Koreans are not sanctioning themselves, it is the US and its allies that are forcing sanctions because they don't want North Korea to modernize. |
Bull. Yea North Korea is modernizing! We'r just holding them down. It's all our fault they spend on WMDs instead feeding their own people. And with that Juche Stalinist economy, I'm sure they'r modernizing quick...:rolleyes:
| quote: | | Who said anything about force, people always have choice. |
Then apparently, you don't know what the you'r talking about. Nobody chooses to work on a collectivist farm in North Korea. And nobody gives up their land for a collectivist farm by choice.
| quote: | | Oh off the word forced was just introduced in this post, and people always have a choice. Are you forced to work? What is the outcome of you not working? In ontario they have what is called "ontario works" the program runs with people who would like basic necesities or a part of them to follow labour programs or be cut off from social assistence. Also a handful of US states run work camps for people on welfare. Is this right - california is instituting legislation to end welfare--- are people forced? No, but the results are destitution. The same goes in North Korea. THe result is much the same. Where are your examples of North Koreans who didn't want to farm and were forced to? Do you know what percentage of the korean population is military? 40% of the population? |
More useless tripe...Nobody chooses where they want to work in North Korea. Perhaps you should research what you'r talking about before comparing North Korea to Canada or the United States.
| quote: | | Us military spending is over 800 Billion, and the US has a negative balance and is running a deficit of about 1 trillion dollars. They don't have money, they are in debt 100 trillion - they are printing money and inflating the economy - understand the US doesn't make money it prints money. |
Great, WTF is your point!?
| quote: | | It is more than North Korea is. Do you know how much food the military stock piles while people strave on the streets in the US? |
Do you? Or are you just pulling more nonsense out of ur arse.
| quote: | | North Korea seems to want them, and I think they should be allowed them. Robert Gates has a differnt opinion. |
Well, no NK wants them...
| quote: | You are deluded, kindly presnt the case of why this is.
Bear in mind North Korean unemployment is "na" versus the us's 10% or so.. AND... well why are 10% of the US population sitting on their buts and starving? Who is going to feed them? |
LOL, you should never be allowed to call someone deluded after the crap you'v posted in this thread...
It's basic macro-economics. A term called, OPPORTUNITY COST. Buying one thing means you sacrifice the purchase of something else. I have $10. If I buy a $10 book, my opportunity cost is, everything else I could have bought with my $10.
Unemployment does not mean a starving population. Get ur head out of the gutter PLEASE...
| quote: | Sure thy can. Guns don't come from the same material as butter.
You are making absolutely no sense.
Understand MONEY DOESN'T MAKE STUFF, people do. (or machines animals and nature etc..) Dead Trees and bank books are not yet grey goo and do not make stuff out of thin air like some genie, if you think this stop smoking crack and try again. |
No sir, YOU make NO sense. It's obvious you don't know jack about economics. Everyone has a limited number of resources to make a limited number of products/services. Here you are telling me, we can make unlimited amounts of anything we want. Plz, go to school...
| quote: | | The numbers were how much money is spent on defence spending. Notice how the US is #1 in defence spending while North Korea is #30. |
Great, who gives a flying ? The United States can afford it. The North Koreans cannot. No wonder millions of them have died of starvation in the last 20 years. And to think, you have the nerve to compare the United States with North Korea, what a joke...
| quote: | | Sure it is, but alas, it isn't starving them because they don't have food it is because they want the starving people to pay. They have the food. |
And with that, your credibility is done.
| quote: | | You are mistaken all North Koreans have social subsistence.. but the esetnail citizens for national security are provided for first - that is they provide for essential services first.. BUT 50% of the population is military or party. But all citizens are provided for if the resources are there.. unlike the US who dumps its excess production due to use quotas, and refuses to provide for the starving and malnurished because they are poor. |
Oh, the Norks have "social subsistence"! Tell that to the millions of people who starved to death. And here you go, comparing America to North Korea. We have food stamps for the poor you idiot! Millions are dying here of starvation...
| quote: | | You are totally talking nonsense. |
If I'm talking nonsense, you are speaking in unintelligible blabber.
| quote: | | In hell perhaps.. alas. |
If it's like that, you should just move from Canada, and go straight to Pyongyang. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
| quote: | | You are mistaken. You really shouldn't use the word always. This is totally rhetorical bs, you chuck the word forced in there and suddently it is a whole different world. Why is it you think North Koreans don't like farming. Personally a whole bunch of farmers like it. It costs like 1 million dollars to buy a farm in north america. I'd love to be part of a farm co-operative. |
IT IS FORCED COLLECTIVISM. The property owners were STRIPPED of their land. People were CHOSEN by the state to work on a collectivist farm. Not according to their abilities or experience. They were just chosen. You erroneously think forced collective farming and voluntary collective farming are the same thing. THEY ARE NOT.
| quote: | | If you farming meant your child was fed or not would you? |
What a great choice. Work or your children die. I'd loooove to live in that society!
| quote: | | If you joining the military to defend your country, America etc.. from Invasion would you join the military? |
Pointless and irrelevant question. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
If it was in a tropical or subtropical climate with no winter I'd agree. I hate winter.
Bare in mind North Korea is over crowded too... but just not as bad as South Korea--- China and India put the smack down on both though. |
Do you think before you type? |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
No. I do often gauge how I feel though, but only for a short lapse.
I'm a stream of consciousness kind of person, who knows the result of my emotions. |
I can see that. Must be the reason why you don't know the difference between forced and voluntary collectives... |
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