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North Korean Rocket Test (pg. 5)
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
Quite the contrary everyone has a choice, if they choose not to they are put in other areas such as the mines.
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You can slit either your left wrist or your right. Pick one. You have a choice in the matter, but are you really free? No. If you don't have the freedom to decline the government and set your own destiny, you are a slave to the state.
| quote: | | So clearly they choose farming over other employment. I think people really do like farming, what is wrong with farming? |
Nothing. Why don't you become a farmer?
| quote: | | If people were starving woulnd't you want your land go to feed starving people? |
If people are starving in a country with plenty of land, I'd stop and ask why resources are allocated so poorly and unable to satisfy the needs of the people. Perhaps it has something to do with central planning..hmmm.
| quote: | | What does buying have to do with anything.. it is material not money. |
Material is money. It is finite in supply and requires effort to acquire which makes it true wealth. Paper money is only a means of exchange.
| quote: | The factors of economy are
Resources - Usages for goods (converted resources) - production manhours (for actually converting resources into goods) - and logistics for getting the goods to the point of use. That is it. Money is just a way of managing who can get what. Capitalist freemarket systems as opposed to command economies actually create an enthropic amount of waste due to over production in an inflated economy which most capistalist economies are. Inflation = waste.
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Ah, how wonderful. We can just plug those factors into a calculator and create wealth can we? It's a simple matter of calculation and the reason millions have suffered, starved, and died in in command economies over the past century is because governments were using the wrong equations. It has nothing to do with the fact that collectivism crushes the human spirit. And capitalism's problem is that it creates so much damn wealth that there is a ton of "waste" left over..too much production..too much junk for the people to choose from. These capitalist excesses are evil, while the privations and famine we see under collectivism are noble. Gotcha.
| quote: | | Wrong resources havn't been tapped in full. The real story is resources which are non renewable create permanent envrionmental damage or are deemed a limited resources. Not all resources are limited. |
What the hell does this mean?
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Famine is a reality that occurs, the US has a very large landmass with good agricultural lands. It produces more food because it has more land. That is all it is. It has nothing to do with money or military.
It was a famine. You can't give food you don't have.
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We have several desert states in America...thousands of square miles of pure sand with no irrigation and no farmable land of any kind. All trade is done voluntarily between people of those states with no coercion or coordination. The simple fact that millions of people live and thrive in these hostile environments proves how vastly superior free markets are to your collectivist dream. You should also consider that food is America's largest export, yet less than 1% of our population are farmers. The amount of land dedicated to farming in America is miniscule compared to other countries. Ask yourself why American farms are capable of feeding the entire country and (several other countries) without a great deal of effort. Are they just "lucky"? Do you know why private farms are so much more efficient than "collective" farms? I'm sure you will damn the answer. It is not love for their fellow man...It is financial incentive...the profit motive. Good old fashioned greed drives farming in America, and the people are well fed as a result. Greed has resulted in abundance, while selfless intentions in North Korea has resulted in starvation.
| quote: | | Understand MONEY DOESN'T MAKE STUFF, people do. (or machines animals and nature etc..) Dead Trees and bank books are not yet grey goo and do not make stuff out of thin air like some genie, |
Correct, the human mind makes stuff. The human mind comes up with ideas for factories and products people want and money is the means of achieving these things. Do you really think wealth is created by the raw muscle of labor and nothing more? That all we need is a giant mob of willing people to make all the "stuff" we need? You ought to learn the real origin of the "stuff" you are talking about buddy. The origin of all your modern comforts isn't the men who actually made them...it is the inventors and INVESTORS who made them possible.
| quote: | | And is america forced freemarket capitalism? |
"Forced" free market... lololololol
| quote: | | Dude. It is not forced collectivism - many people like it. |
Do they have a right to opt out and make their own way in life? No? Then it's forced. And the only people who truly enjoy collectivist ideas are the ruling class (political leaders), or the parasites who live off the effort of others (like you). |
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| Krypton |
| Rarely have I encountered such willful ignorance, especially about North Korea. You might as well be an apologist for Nazi Germany, ashley... |
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| Krypton |
This says it all. North Korea is a place to live. ashley, if you like it so much, why don't you move there, since Canada is just a capitalist backwater...
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| Krypton |
Every time I address your idiotic comments, you simply go off on some retarded tangent, which has nothing to do with the discussion. Before we continue, I suggest you discover the difference between forced and voluntary collectives. Here, let me help you...
FORCED
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collec...he_Soviet_Union
VOLUNTARY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz
EXAMPLE OF SUPERIOR FREE MARKET PWNING COLLECTIVE FARMING
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Following the Fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975, South Vietnam briefly came under the authority of a Provisional Revolutionary Government, a puppet state under military occupation by North Vietnam, before being officially reunified with the North under Communist rule as the Socialist Republic of Vietnam on July 2, 1976. Upon taking control, the Vietnamese communists banned other political parties, arrested suspects believed to have collaborated with the United States and embarked on a mass campaign of collectivization of farms and factories. Reconstruction of the war-ravaged country was slow and serious humanitarian and economic problems confronted the communist regime. In a historic shift in 1986, the Communist Party of Vietnam implemented free-market reforms known as Đổi Mới (Renovation). With the authority of the state remaining unchallenged, private ownership of farms and companies, deregulation and foreign investment were encouraged. The economy of Vietnam has achieved rapid growth in agricultural and industrial production, construction and housing, exports and foreign investment. However, the power of the Communist Party of Vietnam over all organs of government remains firm. |
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| Capitalizt |
I have never seen such a hopeless case as ********.
Aside from the outright BS that comes pouring from him | quote: | | Capitalism generates no more wealth than other forms of economic management. |
we have nonsensical statements and blind platitudes like this..
| quote: | Not all inventions required investors, and not all items were invented.
Modern Comforts are not wealth.
Wealth is a cultural modality, it only exists if you think it does. |
These are signs of a vacant mind..and someone who does not accept objective reality. It's no wonder he is an apologist for an economic and political system responsible for more than 100 million deaths in the past century.. And when he confronts more recent mass starvation as a result of central planning north korea, his answer? | quote: | | Famine is unfortunate. |
Had he been born a generation earlier, he would be apologizing for the mass starvation in communist Russia and extolling the virtue of their system because it is "free from greed". Ashley is a guy in his 20's..who is "retired" by his own admission..currently living off charity and the sweat of those who produce wealth while damning the system that allowed the wealth to be created in the first place. He spends his days aimlessly lying around dreaming up political platforms and pet projects designed to separate producers from their property in the name of some ridiculous utopian dream. He doesn't know his history..doesn't realize that these are not new ideas..they are old ideas..VERY old ideas, and that his idea of compulsory "brother love" has been attempted numerous times throughout history leaving nothing but misery and horror in it's wake. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
I have never seen such a hopeless case as ********. |
That's why I stopped the debate. I'm not wasting my time when the responses I get are videos of world war II bombings...for 's sake...:rolleyes: |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
Hey you are the one who brought up the Nazis you killed it because valid points were made that prooved you false. |
It's a valid comparison. NK has concentration camps. SURPRISE! Keep trying to defend them, it only makes you look retarded...:rolleyes: |
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| Chryz707 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
It was a war. Just look at Israels treatment of palastinians.
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Hooked on Phonics worked for Ashley!
its palestinians!
I wont debate with this NK/Nazi loving sypathizer! you should chop your balls off so you cant contaminate the rest of the world with your idiocy!
What a ing moron! |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | | it isn't charity it is what I am owed by society. |
And with that, he has lost all credibility..permanently. ******** is an able-bodied adult who chooses to be a societal parasite..who chooses to live on the dole...because the world "owes" him his food/clothing/housing/tv/internet and the scuba gear he mentioned in a COR post a few weeks back where he was asking for good tourist spots to visit because he is "bored" lying around all day..
God what a scumbag.. You are just a petulant little boy ashley. You contribute nothing to society. You have produced nothing in your life..zero, zip, nada..and all of the ideas you support lead down the same path..not to production, but to the looting and expropriation of wealth created by others. Your philosophy is based on feel-good theories and noble intentions..rather than practical RESULTS. It's time for you to grow up and live in the real world buddy. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
Frankly I think you are the idiot you can't face the truth, you could care less about the truth, you are only about your position, even if it is baseless, because you are baseless. |
Yea, the truth is North Korea is a great place. That's the truth? That's ing bull.
| quote: | | Personal attacks because you can't offer substance. |
Personal attacks? I offered substance. You offered ing world war II videos. Perhaps you should figure out what substance really is before you accuse me not offering it.
| quote: | | People have choice. The institutions you are talkinga bout are circa WWII. The North Korean system isn't the same as it was 50 years ago. |
Once you again, you show you don't know jack about North Korea. NO ONE CHOOSES WHERE THEY WORK. Got it?
| quote: | | You comparisons are totally baseless. Comparing farming after a war and civil unrest to a period of stability is totally not scientific as the conditions are not the same. All freemarket means is that anyone can buy it for the highest price. If you are trying to generate revenue the freemarket systems do more, but are only benificial for the domestic population if their needs are met first. Sale of excess stock by freemarket to other societies will be best functioned by a freemarket if you are trying to generate profit. |
They are baseless, why? Because you say so?!:haha:
The war is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. They could have just as easily started right off with a private farming system. 11 years is plenty of time for a system to show results and the collective farming which you advocate was an UTTER FAILURE compared to the results they got when they privatized farming. At least you finally admit the capitalism is superior in the allocation of resources.
| quote: | | What you are saying has nothign to do with the farming practices, what it relates to is others willing to provide resources to improve farming capacity. This could be acheived if other parties were willing in a collective or freemarket. The two are not connected in actual practice. They are connected politically though. That is because specific resources were not avaialable within the society. Thus trade bringing benefits that otherwise wouldn't exist. Had those resources existed within the soceity.. eg. a global collective then the issue woulnd't be there and the collective would function in full capacity. |
Wrong, what you are saying is a delusional, utopian, ideal, that forced collectivization works. IT DOESN'T. And I have provided example after example to prove so. I can't help you if you refuse to acknowledge that evidence. I'm not surprised you'v failed to provide any evidence whatsoever to support your case. I'm not taking your word for anything.
| quote: | | What you are actually saying is "freemarkets enable trade between nations that otherwise won't support the practice because they can't get any benifits" |
What? THAT MADE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE! |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
And with that, he has lost all credibility..permanently. ******** is an able-bodied adult who chooses to be a societal parasite..who chooses to live on the dole...because the world "owes" him his food/clothing/housing/tv/internet and the scuba gear he mentioned in a COR post a few weeks back where he was asking for good tourist spots to visit because he is "bored" lying around all day..
God what a scumbag.. You are just a petulant little boy ashley. You contribute nothing to society. You have produced nothing in your life..zero, zip, nada..and all of the ideas you support lead down the same path..not to production, but to the looting and expropriation of wealth created by others. Your philosophy is based on feel-good theories and noble intentions..rather than practical RESULTS. It's time for you to grow up and live in the real world buddy. |
I stopped arguing with ashley a while ago; it is a futile exercise. He's a pseudo-intellectual at it's finest! |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
The US has jails, litebrite and gitmo. Canada has "illegal detainment centers", jails and quasi judicial diversion centers. Canada has secret trials, both the us and canada have "undefined holding allowances for indefinate time periods.
what is your point.
The CIA for example commonly tortures and acts against political enemies of the US.
The RCMP conducts SPOOK operations to weaken people that they can't arrest but don't like.
This political stuff happens all around the world and not all of it is on the books.
Obviously when people try to incite rebellion, riots etc.. they get locked away or killed, it happens everywhere, what is your point?
Its called national security paint it how you'd like. |
The US stopped "enhanced interrogation techniques" back in 2004. The people at Gitmo ARE NOT US CITIZENS. Don't for one ing second, compare the United States to North Korea. North Korea has 150,000 to 200,000 OF ITS OWN CITIZENS in gulag camps where, North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prison and detention camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions according to the U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea. So don't even ing go there...:rolleyes:
http://hrnk.org/hiddengulag/part3.html |
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