They didn't even waterboard people at Abu Ghraib and we court martialed our own soldiers for taking pictures of what they were supposed to be doing...
Shakka
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
No. It "has". Luckily some people got some sense and stopped the torture. We'r not talking about my morality or your morality. We'r talking about the national morality. If I recall, our country's morality was never dictated by that of our enemies. It's something that set us apart from everyone else. It's unfortunate you don't mind seeing that go down the ter...
What do you mean by "national morality?" My morality is determined by my own set of values. Clearly "national morality" is a gray area since some people are more okay with certain things than others.
Sets us apart from everyone else? Are you really that naive and arrogant to think this country has never "tortured" people? Secret CIA prisons have existed for decades. This is laughable compared to incidents like My Lai. Don't act so appalled. Deep down I bet you really don't even give a .
I am sick and ing tired of all this negativity and targeted Bush hatred. You'd think some people wouldn't be able to sleep until the guy is sentenced to death.
Clovis
quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
What do you mean by "national morality?" My morality is determined by my own set of values. Clearly "national morality" is a gray area since some people are more okay with certain things than others.
Sets us apart from everyone else? Are you really that naive and arrogant to think this country has never "tortured" people? Secret CIA prisons have existed for decades. This is laughable compared to incidents like My Lai. Don't act so appalled. Deep down I bet you really don't even give a .
Does that make it OK? Because we did it before? :rolleyes:
quote:
I am sick and ing tired of all this negativity and targeted Bush hatred. You'd think some people wouldn't be able to sleep until the guy is sentenced to death.
I think it's entirely normal for persons who understand the implications and the breadth of the actions taken by the Bush administration to be a little ing concerned.
I don't support the death penalty, but I think SOME, even almost insignificant repercussions would be a nice change...
:stongue:
Shakka
quote:
Originally posted by Clovis
Does that make it OK? Because we did it before? :rolleyes:
No, it doesn't, but let's not pretend that this is some sort of new paradigm. The reality is that it did happen and it does happen. I am questioning the good that is coming from all of this. There's a reason things stay classified.
Clovis
quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
No, it doesn't, but let's not pretend that this is some sort of new paradigm. The reality is that it did happen and it does happen. I am questioning the good that is coming from all of this. There's a reason things stay classified.
Well, I dunno what you're infering from Krypton's posts but for myself I am definitely aware of our past indescretions in that regard. We have done a lot worse is certain.
Creating a legal basis, via the justice department, to give such practices real legitimacy is not so common...in fact I'm pretty sure it's a new precedent in regards to torture, and it IS a new paradigm. (In fact, quoted from the article below: "The Bush Administration, however, has argued that the threat posed by stateless terrorists who draw no distinction between military and civilian targets is so dire that it requires tough new rules of engagement. This shift in perspective, labelled the New Paradigm in a memo written by Alberto Gonzales, then the White House counsel, “places a high premium on . . . the ability to quickly obtain information from captured terrorists and their sponsors in order to avoid further atrocities against American civilians,” giving less weight to the rights of suspects.")
The game has changed. We always practiced rendition programs but the scale and nature of our new system is radically different from anything done in several decades.
Originally posted by Clovis
They didn't even waterboard people at Abu Ghraib and we court martialed our own soldiers for taking pictures of what they were supposed to be doing...
Hahah! The irony, yes, indeed. Prosecute the soldiers for carrying out CIA-mandated and administration-mandated torture of enemy, then prosecute the troops, while leaving the real perpetrators of the torture off the hook. Its insane, I'm telling you! :haha:
Lebezniatnikov
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
If you want to catch a glimpse of an administration leading us towards a Soviet style government, look no further than the current president.
Whooooosh. That was the sound of your credibility flying out the window.
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Whooooosh. That was the sound of your credibility flying out the window.
:stongue:
Yeah, cuz Obama isn't nationalizing banks, the auto industry, and setting us up for $10+ trillion in debt... or signing off on more spending than has ever been done by all the former presidents combined while promising fiscal responsibility... or gladhanding with America hating dictators... or forcing banks to take money they don't want to take, and offering to buy up their debt in the form of company shares owned by the govt.... or talking about bailing out the newspaper industry, thus making them government controlled... or attacking private citizens who disagree with his policies.... or cutting the charitable donation during a recession (why would he do that? simple- it will increase dependency and force more people onto government welfare rolls)... and speaking of it all, how's that stimulus working out? Good thing they were forced to pass it so quickly; unemployment is still going up and there are more people on food stamps and welfare than ever. But that's the goal.
A majority class of government dependant people is being created, who don't pay taxes, and will thus continue to vote Democrat so they can keep getting their free . Yeah, we're definitely not headed for a centralized State.
MisterOpus1
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
:stongue:
Yeah, cuz Obama isn't nationalizing banks, the auto industry, and setting us up for $10+ trillion in debt... or signing off on more spending than has ever been done by all the former presidents combined while promising fiscal responsibility... or gladhanding with America hating dictators... or forcing banks to take money they don't want to take, and offering to buy up their debt in the form of company shares owned by the govt.... or talking about bailing out the newspaper industry, thus making them government controlled... or attacking private citizens who disagree with his policies.... or cutting the charitable donation during a recession (why would he do that? simple- it will increase dependency and force more people onto government welfare rolls)... and speaking of it all, how's that stimulus working out? Good thing they were forced to pass it so quickly; unemployment is still going up and there are more people on food stamps and welfare than ever. But that's the goal.
A majority class of government dependant people is being created, who don't pay taxes, and will thus continue to vote Democrat so they can keep getting their free . Yeah, we're definitely not headed for a centralized State.
Hi 17, you can save your topic-changing bologna for another thread. Actually, I'm quite certain this blather has been discussed at length in other threads.
What I am interested to know from you is whether or not you are willing to concede the following:
1. Your original story is fallacious, given what we know about the timeline.
2. Torture, as I depicted earlier and what is clear by our Constitution is illegal.
Now, are you going to parse words even further and tell us that what we did is not torture? Please tell us what Rush says tomorrow. I can't wait for another ing "frat boy prank" analogy.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
:stongue:
Yeah, cuz Obama isn't nationalizing banks, the auto industry, and setting us up for $10+ trillion in debt... or signing off on more spending than has ever been done by all the former presidents combined while promising fiscal responsibility... or gladhanding with America hating dictators... or forcing banks to take money they don't want to take, and offering to buy up their debt in the form of company shares owned by the govt.... or talking about bailing out the newspaper industry, thus making them government controlled... or attacking private citizens who disagree with his policies.... or cutting the charitable donation during a recession (why would he do that? simple- it will increase dependency and force more people onto government welfare rolls)... and speaking of it all, how's that stimulus working out? Good thing they were forced to pass it so quickly; unemployment is still going up and there are more people on food stamps and welfare than ever. But that's the goal.
A majority class of government dependant people is being created, who don't pay taxes, and will thus continue to vote Democrat so they can keep getting their free . Yeah, we're definitely not headed for a centralized State.
jesus. im so glad i dont have one eye shut all the time like you.
hardcore trancer
speaking of torture,check out how the Saudi's torture their accused criminals.
yukii
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
speaking of torture,check out how the Saudi's torture their accused criminals.
. watching that video almost made throw up & i know that's not even the worst.
i don't care if we're fighting the freaking Nazis.. we can't allow torturing.. not only is it illegal but its immoral..
how many innocent people have had to endure wrongful torturing??
the results aren't even promising! how many people would rather lie about something than continue saying they don't know about what they're asking & keep getting tortured? imho, torture doesn't work & i think it goes against our rights as fellow human beings i don't care from what country you are :o we might have used it in the past but that doesn't give us the excuse to keep fighting wars as if we were cavemen.
