"Look at these bastard saudis(not really) in an attempt to make Iran look good relatively!"
theyre all ed ht.
just the tip of the iceberg, oh yeah. i hope this country is overthrown personally..and it wouldnt be a hard task at all since now only 20 percent of the local populace is a citizen. Overthrow and change naturalization laws to account for time alreadyresided, and the power will shift imensely from this incapable over entitled ruling class.
Hopefully this makes big news internationally(it will be censored here). How the government chooses to deal with this sadistic excuse of a man is going to be a crucial turning point for the perception of this monarchy by many around the world.
This country is completely dependant on foreign manpower so they best play their cards right and not get too cocky.
since Im nervous about the big brother state watching this.
GO UAE GO! THIS IS ALL A JOKE TO TRAP THE CONSPIRATORS!
Lebezniatnikov
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
jesus. im so glad i dont have one eye shut all the time like you.
+1
I think he'll seriously believe anything he hears on right-wing talk radio. Yup, America is becoming just like the communist Soviet Union! Evil Empire here we come!
You know, he shouldn't be complaining about that so much though, since it's evident he has the same stance on both propaganda and human rights that the Soviets had. If he's allowed to make blanket comparisons, so are we, right?
I would love to see 17 address the questions raised by Opus. I'm afraid we won't, because to do so would be to admit that he bought a piece of right-wing propaganda hook, line and sinker. And it would also mean that he would have to think long and hard about whether torture is congruous with the values and principles put forth by the Constitution, which by now I'm guessing he's willing to shred just a little bit since Rush doesn't think it's important in this case (though he'll be hollering about constitutional limits on power tomorrow).
culorut
Turley: 'God help us' if torture only gets a '9/11 commission'
The recent release of Bush administration torture memos has given rise to calls for prosecution of the Justice Department lawyers who wrote those memos. However, law professor Jonathan Turley believes that this may represent a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the other high Bush administration officials who ordered the torture.
"That's the really strange thing," Turley told MSNBC's David Shuster on Tuesday. "In the last week or so, we've seen an effort to define a potential investigation in terms of the lawyers who wrote these memos. ... A war crime investigation does not look at the people who drove the trains -- they look at the people who told the trains to roll."
"George Bush and Vice President Cheney, the CIA director, the attorney general ... implemented, in full knowledge that it was a war crime, the torture program," Turley emphasized. "The effort to define it in terms of lawyers is something of a Beltway shift. That is, it's setting us up for failure."
According to Turley, Attorney General Eric Holder "needs to appoint a special prosecutor and not limit it as to who committed the alleged war crimes."
"A true war crime investigation would be given to a special prosecutor, who would follow it where it would lead him or her," Turley told Shuster. "And that would most certainly lead him ... or her to the former president or vice president and the people like the CIA director and attorney general who pushed through this program."
"God help us if the only thing we get out of this is a commission modeled on 9/11," Turley commented. "That was a commission that was really made for Washington -- a commission composed of political appointees of both parties that ran interference for those parties -- a commission that insisted at the beginning it would not impose blame on individuals. So it's the ideal Washington commission -- a commission that would investigate without any reprecussions."
This video is from MSNBC's Countdown, broadcast Apr. 21, 2009.
I think he'll seriously believe anything he hears on right-wing talk radio. Yup, America is becoming just like the communist Soviet Union! Evil Empire here we come!
You know, he shouldn't be complaining about that so much though, since it's evident he has the same stance on both propaganda and human rights that the Soviets had. If he's allowed to make blanket comparisons, so are we, right?
I would love to see 17 address the questions raised by Opus. I'm afraid we won't, because to do so would be to admit that he bought a piece of right-wing propaganda hook, line and sinker. And it would also mean that he would have to think long and hard about whether torture is congruous with the values and principles put forth by the Constitution, which by now I'm guessing he's willing to shred just a little bit since Rush doesn't think it's important in this case (though he'll be hollering about constitutional limits on power tomorrow).
You take things too literal. Do I think we're a week away from the White House equaling the Kremlin? Of course not. But things are being set in motion to head us down the path towards socialism. You can't deny the things I listed... they aren't opinions regarding what the administration is doing. Tell me I'm wrong to say nationalization of GM and the banking system is happening, and the government wants to buy up debt in the form of back shares. Tell me I'm wrong to say that Obama's spending this year alone is more than all of the previous administrations combined. Tell me I'm wrong to say that Obama's budget projections are 10-13 Trillion in the next 10 years. Tell me I'm wrong to make the connection that reducing the charitable donation percentage will make people less likely to donate to charity, thus leaving more people dependant and going to government for that help. Tell me I'm wrong that the stimulus isn't doing , and all those "shovel ready jobs" aren't happening... wait, maybe you'll listen to the Labor Department's report that came out today:
quote:
The Labor Department reported Thursday that initial claims for unemployment compensation rose to a seasonally adjusted 640,000 last week, up from a revised 613,000 the previous week. That was slightly more than analysts’ expectations of 635,000.
Worse-than-expected news on unemployment and home sales Thursday dampened optimism that a broad economic recovery might be near.
Many analysts don’t expect the housing slide to show signs of stabilizing until the second half of this year. They said layoffs may be at their high point, but that the jobless rate, already at a 25-year high, will keep rising until the middle of 2010.
So much for that "rush" to hire construction workers... there's so much inventory that nobody's buying or building. Ask Caterpillar how they're doing, after Obama's promise that the Stimulus would have them hiring... yeah they've laid off thousands and are shutting down plants now.
That's not right wing propoganda, that's factual information that, because you don't see it in the Huffpo or on MSNBC, you don't believe is "news". You and your cohorts can keep burying your head in the sand and calling me a Rush follower, but you guys are the ones truly beholden to a demagogue. It is a slow and gradual process that's happening, and one day you're going to wonder what the hell happened to the country if we continue down this path. You have an emotional attachment to Obama and what you thought he represented that is so strong, you feel like any attack on him, even if its truthful, is an attack on you and it kills to you admit that maybe you're not seeing the "centrist" you think you voted for.
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hi 17, you can save your topic-changing bologna for another thread. Actually, I'm quite certain this blather has been discussed at length in other threads.
wtf are you talking about? Read back through the thread. First, Krypton made the comment that my stance was equal to the country returning to barbarianism. My stance has CLEARLY been explained that I believe waterboarding KSM was a good idea, given the results. I also said multiple times that I don't think it's a technique that should be employed across the board, or in every situation, and that every circumstance is different and you have to study them on an individual basis. My comment to Krypton about blanket statements refers to a previous conversation we had where he was saying the local populations in Germany "ing hate our guts" and will "spit on us and key your car" if you're an American because of our military presence there, essentially making a false blanket statement about millions of people based on a couple of anecdotal 2nd hand informational stories he's heard. Then, Lebez said my credibility went out the window because Magnetonium said 4 more years of Bush would have lead to a Soviet style collapse... which is complete bull, and so I listed examples (factual ones) regarding what this administration is doing that resembles Soviet style tactics. Comprende, ese?
quote:
What I am interested to know from you is whether or not you are willing to concede the following:
1. Your original story is fallacious, given what we know about the timeline.
How is it fallacious? Only the brilliant minds of the TA's PDD figured it all out, but it's not being reported anywhere in the media that it's all a lie? lol. What I see is the new information that's come to light showing HOW the terror attack was stopped.
quote:
2. Torture, as I depicted earlier and what is clear by our Constitution is illegal.
What exactly do you want me to concede? I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.
quote:
Now, are you going to parse words even further and tell us that what we did is not torture? Please tell us what Rush says tomorrow. I can't wait for another ing "frat boy prank" analogy.
Nothing worse than a grumpy, condescending ... that's the truth. And you wonder why I don't usualy want to give you my time to answer your ing questions.
Clovis
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Then, Lebez said my credibility went out the window because Magnetonium said 4 more years of Bush would have lead to a Soviet style collapse... which is complete bull, and so I listed examples (factual ones) regarding what this administration is doing that resembles Soviet style tactics. Comprende, ese?
You sound like McCarthy
quote:
How is it fallacious? Only the brilliant minds of the TA's PDD figured it all out, but it's not being reported anywhere in the media that it's all a lie? lol. What I see is the new information that's come to light showing HOW the terror attack was stopped.
It's not being reported anywhere because legitimate news outlets did not pick up the story in the first place.
CNS news figures at the top, a long with huffington debunking it and a few other sites doing the same, including this TA thread at the bottom.
New information has come to light on how this attack was prevented almost a year before KSM was even in our custody. Meaning that none of his testimony, whatsoever, led to the foiling of this attack on LA.
quote:
What exactly do you want me to concede? I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.
It's pretty simple. We have laws banning torture in this country. The supreme court determined that the Geneva convention applies to our captives in the war on terror. Waterboarding is in violation of the Geneva Convention. The United States signed the Geneva Convention. As per the constitution that makes it the rule of law in our country. Therefore the methods authorized by the DOJ under Bush were and are illegal.
quote:
Nothing worse than a grumpy, condescending ... that's the truth. And you wonder why I don't usualy want to give you my time to answer your ing questions.
You want to know who else sounds like a condescending dick?
quote:
Confirmed: "torture" saved L.A. from 9/11 style attack
For all the bleeding hearts out there who don't realize the world is a dangerous place:
My heart doesn't bleed for KSM or anyone else in Guantanamo bay who is an enemy of this state and the world.
It bleeds for a country that finds it ok to subvert our most sacred principles, the due process of law and the right to a trial, and finds it in our best interest to use means of torture and treatment that we abhorred in the past in the name of greater security.
Do you know how many people we've released from Guantanamo who are now free, likely back at home, and telling their friends and family of how we kept them chained in an outdoor cage, subjected them to solitary confinement, waterboarding, sleep deprivation, just to let them go after a year or so?
Hell, the whole world knows.
MisterOpus1
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
wtf are you talking about? Read back through the thread. First, Krypton made the comment that my stance was equal to the country returning to barbarianism. My stance has CLEARLY been explained that I believe waterboarding KSM was a good idea, given the results. I also said multiple times that I don't think it's a technique that should be employed across the board, or in every situation, and that every circumstance is different and you have to study them on an individual basis. My comment to Krypton about blanket statements refers to a previous conversation we had where he was saying the local populations in Germany "ing hate our guts" and will "spit on us and key your car" if you're an American because of our military presence there, essentially making a false blanket statement about millions of people based on a couple of anecdotal 2nd hand informational stories he's heard. Then, Lebez said my credibility went out the window because Magnetonium said 4 more years of Bush would have lead to a Soviet style collapse... which is complete bull, and so I listed examples (factual ones) regarding what this administration is doing that resembles Soviet style tactics. Comprende, ese?
I see. So that type of "socialism" by Obama is bad, but the big giant government "socialism", borderline communism of the past 8 years where the government and its influence was expanded to levels not previously touched even close by any President, let alone a Democratic president must have been all hunky dory to you.
Regardless, have at it with those arguing with you over this. That's not my beef ATM.
quote:
How is it fallacious? Only the brilliant minds of the TA's PDD figured it all out, but it's not being reported anywhere in the media that it's all a lie? lol. What I see is the new information that's come to light showing HOW the terror attack was stopped.
Wait a tic - so it's only true when it's reported in the MSM? I almost tipped over backwards with the ing irony coming from you.
It might make you a little edgier, but it was also reported on Olbermann last night.
But honestly, I personally don't give a rat's ass where it was reported - the timeline of events completely discredit your story entirely. How does torturing someone in 2003 stop an event that ing happened in 2002, champ?
quote:
What exactly do you want me to concede? I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.
Exactly what Clovis described:
quote:
It's pretty simple. We have laws banning torture in this country. The supreme court determined that the Geneva convention applies to our captives in the war on terror. Waterboarding is in violation of the Geneva Convention. The United States signed the Geneva Convention. As per the constitution that makes it the rule of law in our country. Therefore the methods authorized by the DOJ under Bush were and are illegal.
Are you just playing with me here? Because this is about as ing obvious as it gets. Torture is illegal, Bush tortured, what Bush did is illegal. Pretty damn simple.
quote:
Nothing worse than a grumpy, condescending ... that's the truth. And you wonder why I don't usualy want to give you my time to answer your ing questions.
Well since we're going down the road of personal insults, and since I'm not in the best of moods right now, I'll respond as such:
I wonder nothing of the sort when tard twats such as yourself who can't find the time to pull away from your Limbaugh circle-jerk while listening to AM radio to understand that ing waterboarding someone 183 times in 1 month is somehow considered "effective" means of interrogation to you (i.e. effective torture). Not to mention the fact that the info. obtained from him was information that HAD ALREADY ING OCCURRED JUST 6 MONTHS BEFORE (and I might add is questionable intelligence by the FBI as to whether or not we truly foiled any plot).
Is it really that hard to figure out what I'm saying?
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
What do you mean by "national morality?" My morality is determined by my own set of values. Clearly "national morality" is a gray area since some people are more okay with certain things than others.
Sets us apart from everyone else? Are you really that naive and arrogant to think this country has never "tortured" people? Secret CIA prisons have existed for decades. This is laughable compared to incidents like My Lai. Don't act so appalled. Deep down I bet you really don't even give a .
I am sick and ing tired of all this negativity and targeted Bush hatred. You'd think some people wouldn't be able to sleep until the guy is sentenced to death.
Yes, national morality. National ideals. America. Freedom. Democracy. Etc. We are not a torture nation. Supposedly. You can try to justify torture all you want but it is reprehensible. It is against international law. And it is against what America is supposed to stand for. There is no justice in torture.
Scottaculous
Not sure if this was mentioned but we executed several Japanese after WWII for water boarding our soldiers.
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
wtf are you talking about? Read back through the thread. First, Krypton made the comment that my stance was equal to the country returning to barbarianism. My stance has CLEARLY been explained that I believe waterboarding KSM was a good idea, given the results. I also said multiple times that I don't think it's a technique that should be employed across the board, or in every situation, and that every circumstance is different and you have to study them on an individual basis.
Water boarding someone 183 times in one month sounds reeeeally effective doesn't it? Nevermind the fact that it's against international law and we prosecuted it as a war crime before.
quote:
My comment to Krypton about blanket statements refers to a previous conversation we had where he was saying the local populations in Germany "ing hate our guts" and will "spit on us and key your car" if you're an American because of our military presence there, essentially making a false blanket statement about millions of people based on a couple of anecdotal 2nd hand informational stories he's heard.
Clearly, you missed the entire point of that exchange, so I'll rehash it...
1) You made the ridiculous assertion that terrorists and resistance groups fight and attack us because they simply hate our freedom. A statement which completely is devoid of any basis in reality.
I responded by providing the reality of why they fight, something hardline right wingers refuse to understand or even listen to. I made the observation that it is not Muslims or Arabs coming over to Europe or America occupying our cities and towns or supporting tyrants and dictators who take away our freedoms. It is us. We supported Saddam. We supported the Shah. We support Mabarak. We support the occupation of Palestine. We invade their countries. Not them. Us.
2) You basically changed the subject to military bases in allied countries, and I stupidly fell for it.
elFreak
did they deny the prisoners blow jobs?
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I see. So that type of "socialism" by Obama is bad, but the big giant government "socialism", borderline communism of the past 8 years where the government and its influence was expanded to levels not previously touched even close by any President, let alone a Democratic president must have been all hunky dory to you.
Listen, I've said 100 times that I was severely disappointed in the way the Bush administration betrayed the conservative principles which got him elected. You guys always go back to the crazy spending and expansion that happened under Bush... so where is the outrage now that it's significantly more pervasive under your Dear Leader? It's ok when he's doing it I guess.
quote:
Wait a tic - so it's only true when it's reported in the MSM? I almost tipped over backwards with the ing irony coming from you.
It might make you a little edgier, but it was also reported on Olbermann last night.
But honestly, I personally don't give a rat's ass where it was reported - the timeline of events completely discredit your story entirely. How does torturing someone in 2003 stop an event that ing happened in 2002, champ?
You missed the point on my mainstream media comment. I was trying to illustrate that they would be the first ones to go ape over such a discrepency, and yet we hear about it from who... Olbermann? What kind of security clearance does he have? Sorry but I'm more open to listening to the CIA's report about the May 30th, 2005 Justice Department memo clearly stating that enhanced interrogation including waterboarding to KSM lead to info that helped prevent an attack on L.A. Do you know that they weren't talking about a different attack plan than the one foiled in 2002? Do you sit in on the CIA briefings each morning?
quote:
Exactly what Clovis described:
Are you just playing with me here? Because this is about as ing obvious as it gets. Torture is illegal, Bush tortured, what Bush did is illegal. Pretty damn simple.
Why do you see it so black and white? Do you understand that the techniques used were legally agreed upon and signed off by congress... the same congress that is also made up of Democrats? Don't give me that Geneva Conventions bull either. If you want to follow it to the letter, then you need to also accept the fact that the people we were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't wear uniforms, and were not "soldiers". In fact, calling them that is an insult to actual soldiers. Extending them the respect and consideration due to soldiers serving under an actual flag makes a mockery of the honor true soldiers demonstrate to each other in a time of war. Technically, none of what's outlined in the Geneva Conventions applies to lawless barbarians who hide among civilians and target whoever doesn't believe in their ed up version of Islamic law. A civilized nation is only compromising itself by treating them as true "soldiers".
But you gotta love the Left.... Waterboarding = heinous torture and completely immoral. Pulling a baby's head out of mother and sucking its brain out with long needle = acceptable alternative to contraception.
quote:
Well since we're going down the road of personal insults, and since I'm not in the best of moods right now, I'll respond as such:
I wonder nothing of the sort when tard twats such as yourself who can't find the time to pull away from your Limbaugh circle-jerk while listening to AM radio to understand that ing waterboarding someone 183 times in 1 month is somehow considered "effective" means of interrogation to you (i.e. effective torture). Not to mention the fact that the info. obtained from him was information that HAD ALREADY ING OCCURRED JUST 6 MONTHS BEFORE (and I might add is questionable intelligence by the FBI as to whether or not we truly foiled any plot).
Well, thank god we have in you a truly knowledgable source of intelligence analysis to question the FBI's reporting. How are you able to do all that while living in your mom's basement?
I would love to see your reaction if you had a captured friend or family member being broadcast on TV, with a machette to their neck making demands. See how quickly you'd be down with waterboarding if you knew doing it to someone in their group would lead to the location your friend/family member is being held. You can bloviate all you want about the morals and the principles and the Geneva Conventions... you're conveniently insulated from the reality of war and are nothing more than a political armchair quarterback. I'll leave you with this quote from NY Rep. Peter King:
quote:
If we have another 2,000 people killed, I want Nancy Pelosi and George Soros, John Conyers and Pat Leahy to go to the funeral and say, "Your son was vaporized because we didn’t want to dump some guy's head under water for 30 seconds."
