I dont know if this ever made the mainstream, but here is chris hitchens getting waterboarded. I think Mr. Hannity should give it a go.
In world war 2, british officers in charge of detained nazi spies were not permitted to lay a hand on them. its a shame that so many years later the free western world is taking steps backwards on these matters of human rights. I think many who supported these actions of waterboarding for supposedly averting a crisis, are not seeing the bigger picture. These actions really gives the Wazirstan crowd so much more motivation, and so much more material to indoctrinate the next generation.
MisterOpus1
quote:
Originally posted by Clovis
Given that the original article refers to "According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.” "
I don't think they are...
Either someone here did not do their homework, the Bush administration lied about foiling the attack in 2002, or we are talking about an identical attack using the same exact type of cell with the same exact target in the same exact city, that would have taken place in 2004?
Excellent catch, Clovis, and as far as I've read on this, your analysis is accurate. This story completely collapsed on it's own based on a timeline of events. The memo from the DOJ that torture-supporters are referring to is this:
quote:
You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM -- once enhanced techniques were employed -- led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the "Second Wave," "to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into" a building in Los Angeles.
Yes, torture led to this discovery of a foiled plot that was already ing foiled the previous year.
Yeah, great discovery. You torture a guy to find out that, umm, we foiled a plot in the past.
Woo.
Nice job.
As for 17sssss, ing really?
And can we please stop creating this red herring bull question of whether or not torture works in the first place? Nevermind the fact that Abu Zubaydah gave us KSM WITHOUT THE ING USE OF TORTURE IN THE FIRST PLACE:
quote:
One of the most striking parts of the memos is the false premises on which they are based. The first, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use harsh interrogation techniques on a high-ranking terrorist, Abu Zubaydah, on the grounds that previous methods hadn’t been working. The next three memos cite the successes of those methods as a justification for their continued use.
It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.
We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives.
There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.
Nevermind that I have my sincere doubts about what some in the CIA and the Bush Administration are saying about the effectiveness of torture:
quote:
According to the May 30, 2005 Bradbury memo, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.
....So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times--still just half of what they did to KSM.
The CIA wants you to believe waterboarding is effective. Yet somehow, it took them 183 applications of the waterboard in a one month period to get what they claimed was cooperation out of KSM.
Nevermind the fact that torture was being used to try and confirm a ing preconceived conclusion, i.e. POLITICAL purpose to invade Iraq by trying desperately to find a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam:
Nevermind the history behind waterboarding and WWII, the fact that we, yes WE the ing U.S. prosecuted others for waterboarding because WE ing deemed it as torture.
This is not, nor has it ever been the ing argument. I credit Cheney for making a good attempt at diverting the argument towards this question, and to some extent it worked (they're arguing over whether or not torture worked on Hardball as I type).
No, this isn't the argument, and God help me for giving major props to Shepard Smith on Faux News, but he nailed THE actual point better than I could:
We.
Don't.
ing.
Torture.
That's it. Nothing more.
Lest we want to completely do away with the rule of law, like this one signed by the Republican's greatest champion, Ronnie Reagan in 1988 and ratified in the Senate in 1994:
quote:
Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law (Article 4) . . . . The State Party in territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found, shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . . An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
Hamdan decision to which upholds Common Article 3 of Geneva:
quote:
Even more importantly for present purposes, the Court held that Common Article 3 of Geneva applies as a matter of treaty obligation to the conflict against Al Qaeda. That is the HUGE part of today’s ruling. The commissions are the least of it. This basically resolves the debate about interrogation techniques, because Common Article 3 provides that detained persons “shall in all circumstances be treated humanely,” and that “[t]o this end,” certain specified acts “are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever”—including “cruel treatment and torture,” and “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.” This standard, not limited to the restrictions of the due process clause, is much more restrictive than even the McCain Amendment.
So the ing equation is simple, and we need to keep it as such:
A. International treaties make torture illegal and prosecutable.
B . We signed those treaties, which according to our own Constitution, make those treaties the law of our land as well.
C. The Bush Administration gave down orders to torture.
D. SO WHAT THE DO YOU THINK THE LOGICAL CONCLUSION HERE SHOULD BE?
This needs to be kept simple. Again, credit to Cheney and the Bush cheerleaders to muddy the waters to our gullible press, but nothing can muddy the simple facts I just described in A-D.
Lebezniatnikov
Wow. Good catch Clovis. The evidence presented seemed very tenuous, and now we know why.
the17sss, I'm all for having an open and honest debate about the utility or morality of using torture as an interrogation method as well, but I think you're jumping to conclusions saying things like "see!? it works" here.
Magnetonium
Clovis and Opus are putting on a clinic!
Can PKC swing in and call this another episode of conspiracy theorists gone crazy? After all, the conflicting reports of terrorist plans to attack L.A., its just speculation, right? We're all conspiracy theorists here, right? :stongue:
Or, precisely, it was 8 years of LIES that Bush administration ran by. Another 4 and the country could have disintegrated like Soviet Union did almost 20 years ago.
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
They already do worse. How many beheadings did you watch? Daniel Pearl was a reporter, not a combatant.
So what? You want our morality to be dictated by what they do? I thought this was America...honestly...
Shakka
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
So what? You want our morality to be dictated by what they do? I thought this was America...honestly...
It is. Do you think your morality and my morality are one and the same? You brought it up, I just answered your question.
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Do you think waterboarding KSM, which essentially prevented a massive attack on L.A., was a bad idea? Yes or no.
What a ridiculous question! Did you know KSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month? You call this successful interrogation? LOL...Sounds more like the Spanish Inquisition. I'm glad you'r content with our country going the way of barbarians.
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
It is. Do you think your morality and my morality are one and the same? You brought it up, I just answered your question.
No. It "has". Luckily some people got some sense and stopped the torture. We'r not talking about my morality or your morality. We'r talking about the national morality. If I recall, our country's morality was never dictated by that of our enemies. It's something that set us apart from everyone else. It's unfortunate you don't mind seeing that go down the ter...
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium
Or, precisely, it was 8 years of LIES that Bush administration ran by. Another 4 and the country could have disintegrated like Soviet Union did almost 20 years ago.
Right, because the Democrat party certainly doesn't lie, and I can't provide scores of examples. :rolleyes:
If you want to catch a glimpse of an administration leading us towards a Soviet style government, look no further than the current president.
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
What a ridiculous question! Did you know KSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month? You call this successful interrogation? LOL...Sounds more like the Spanish Inquisition. I'm glad you'r content with our country going the way of barbarians.
Jesus man, could you possibly create more blanket statements based on outlying examples? First, because of a few anecdotal stories you've heard, you better not even think about setting foot in Germany as an American or you'll get your car keyed and spit on... and now because 3 dirty motherers who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were waterboarded, we're on the path to barbarianism as a country??? :haha:
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Jesus man, could you possibly create more blanket statements based on outlying examples? First, because of a few anecdotal stories you've heard, you better not even think about setting foot in Germany as an American or you'll get your car keyed and spit on...
Great tactic there changing the subject.
quote:
and now because 3 dirty motherers who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were waterboarded, we're on the path to barbarianism as a country??? :haha:
So torture is what...honorable? And hundreds were tortured, not just 3. Does Abu Ghraib ring a bell? How about Bagram AFB? CIA black sites? Can't forget about Guantanamo. Also happy to see you completely disregard the fact we prosecuted these exact same actions done by other nationals.
Clovis
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Jesus man, could you possibly create more blanket statements based on outlying examples? First, because of a few anecdotal stories you've heard, you better not even think about setting foot in Germany as an American or you'll get your car keyed and spit on... and now because 3 dirty motherers who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were waterboarded, we're on the path to barbarianism as a country??? :haha:
You are so good at completely missing the root of the issue, it's amazing.
