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Toronto is about to make life a lot more difficult for motorists... on purpose! (pg. 3)
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| Pett |
| quote: | Originally posted by Skipper
Why not? Tons of cyclists benefit from them. |
+1 and all public spaces in toronto are not reserved for you 905'ers to polute the air downtown with your ty cars.
As far a Jarvis is concerned I read an article saying that multiple traffic studies have already been completed showing that the closing of the centre lane would have very minimal adverse affects on traffic flow.
Richmond and Adelaide; that one i don't agree with changing those into one ways but have a chat with your friend adam vaughan about that one. |
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| Elendil |
| I'm just glad I don't have to live in the cesspool that is a major city like Toronto. Sweet. ;) Night-time weekend visits suit me just fine. |
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| smuncky |
great little piece by Shawn Micallef over at spacing.
| quote: | I was in New York City last month and my 24th Street hotel was a few doors away from Madison Square Park and the iconic intersection of 5th and Broadway. Iconic because of the famous Flatiron Building in the background (see above) but perhaps equally iconic (to some of us) because it’s now a fine example of the way New York City is rapidly transforming Broadway into a shared street. If you haven’t already you should listen to the recent Spacing Radio episode featuring NYC’s Transportation Commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan talking (in Toronto) last month about what her city is doing.
May 22nd, 2009
New York City lessons and Toronto’s fairy tale War on the Car
Posted by Shawn Micallef
I was in New York City last month and my 24th Street hotel was a few doors away from Madison Square Park and the iconic intersection of 5th and Broadway. Iconic because of the famous Flatiron Building in the background (see above) but perhaps equally iconic (to some of us) because it’s now a fine example of the way New York City is rapidly transforming Broadway into a shared street. If you haven’t already you should listen to the recent Spacing Radio episode featuring NYC’s Transportation Commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan talking (in Toronto) last month about what her city is doing.
In these photos you can see the old boulevards of Broadway and 5th, but now surrounded by a gravelly surface and planters. Bigger sidewalks, bike lanes, new public plazas with chairs and tables and, here it is, the cars still get through in the heart of one of the most congested islands on the planet. All this done quickly, with a relatively small budget.
Here in Toronto there is a historonic frenzy being whipped up by some councillors and ratepayer associations suggesting that there is a War on the Car — but is there? Much of this rhetoric swirls around Jarvis Street and the closing of its centre lane to make room for other modes of transit. Much less radical than what New York has done in the photos above, but the histrionics in Toronto are at a pitch that might be appropriate if the plan was to close down Jarvis entirely.
Take this piece in the Globe today that got to the heart of why things are getting wacky: some councillors are trying to find a wedge issue for next year’s municipal election. Even councillors who should know better, like Paul Ainslie — the pride of Guild — said this to the Globe: “I don’t get people calling my office and saying there are not enough bike lanes.” With that logic, does Ainslie not support anything that comes across council’s agenda unless he’s heard something from his constituents? That would be silly. So is conflating a lane closure into a war as others have done.
Comments like this, and other more incendiary ones, look ridiculous when we see what New York is doing and will look much worse when viewed in retrospect: political posturing is going to land some councillors on the wrong side of history, and if they care at all about their various legacies, they should act like real leaders now rather than slip and slide, waiting for somebody to “call them” and ask for bike lanes. Cities everywhere are changing, adapting, and it isn’t a war, it’s progress. Janette Sadik-Khan’s talk should be required listening for everybody who has an opinion on Jarvis or this fake War on the Cars. This is possibly one case where the equally-imaginary Toronto inferiority complex with New York may work in our city’s favour: if New York is doing it, and doing it so easily and on such a massive scale, doesn’t it make Toronto look silly if we’re using terms like “war” when talking about a few feet of bike lanes? I’m not saying that argument works for everybody — or even me — but if somebody is going around shouting there is a War on Cars, it’s likely they believe in other fairy tales. It would be fun to see hawkish Chicken Little warmongers like Case Ootes and Denzil Minnan-Wong (the councilors saying the sky is falling that war has been declared the loudest) take on Mayor Bloomberg. Could they get away with the crazy rhetoric then?
Then there is something that the car folks don’t - and possibly can’t — admit to: cars have always been in a perpetual state of war with themselves. It’s a dirty and nasty civil war that nobody wants to talk about but anybody that has driven a car knows exists (and has existed for a long time). Cars are always battling each other for space and there is not, and never will be, enough roads in most urban centres to declare a truce in that war. I drove for nearly a decade in Windsor and I’ve driven enough here in Toronto to know the war is ongoing. Whether I’m driving on College Street downtown, rolling on big fat Jarvis Street (with that middle lane intact), out in Kingston-Galloway along Councillor Ainslie’s six-lane-wide arterials or speeding along the incredible 16 lanes of the 401 near the airport, a drive in the city a constant battle with other cars for space. Civility breaks down in seconds, people hustle for position, they swear the most vile swears at each (I do it too — it just comes out), and it’s Hobbsian and brutish because there is just not enough room. There hasn’t been room for decades — the term “gridlock” is thirty years old, existing long before bike lanes were a thought. So when a proposal like Jarvis comes along that will make a negligible difference in the time it takes to drive along it, car drivers have somebody other than themselves to vent to. This fake and embarrassing War on the Car is a scapegoat for the Car on Car war and it’s bad for Toronto to let it become a wedge issue. Don’t let them get away with it. |
http://spacing.ca/wire/2009/05/22/n...war-on-the-car/ |
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| smuncky |
i know it's from the toronto star which might make you melt if you click on the link, but c'mon jay, i'd thought you'd post the opinion piece by karen's counterpart Denzil Minnan-Wong as well? those 2 go together like peas in a pod. actually, all three of you would fit well together.
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/638471 |
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| Jayx1 |
Re: New York City.
There are two things broadway has that jarvis doesnt is is conveniently overlooked by this article.
1) its a one way street which helps drastically improve traffic flow
2) There are 3 subway lines that run underneath Broadway alone
Apples and Oranges as far as im concerned. |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Re: New York City.
There are two things broadway has that jarvis doesnt is is conveniently overlooked by this article.
1) its a one way street which helps drastically improve traffic flow
2) There are 3 subway lines that run underneath Broadway alone
Apples and Oranges as far as im concerned. |
Toronto doesnt' need the same subway system that NYC has. We have way fewer people. It needs to be improved, but don't suggest that it has to be like NYC either. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pett
+1 and all public spaces in toronto are not reserved for you 905'ers to polute the air downtown with your ty cars.
As far a Jarvis is concerned I read an article saying that multiple traffic studies have already been completed showing that the closing of the centre lane would have very minimal adverse affects on traffic flow.
Richmond and Adelaide; that one i don't agree with changing those into one ways but have a chat with your friend adam vaughan about that one. |
Im not a 905er and i own a "ty" car as do a lot of people in the 416. But thats the problem with a lot of downtown people who think that their neighbourhood is for themselves only. And as far as im concerned, minimal or major, any disruption in traffic flow is unacceptable. We need to be finding ways to IMPROVE traffic flow. Because that benefits everyone including transit users, taxi users, pedestrians who dont have to breath as much idlling car truck and bus fumes (yes buses produce (gasp) pollution too!) |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Skipper
Toronto doesnt' need the same subway system that NYC has. We have way fewer people. It needs to be improved, but don't suggest that it has to be like NYC either. |
So you are telling me that the current subway/transit and road system is sufficient? Or do you just feel the need to counter every single point i make in spite of its validity? LOL |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by smuncky
i know it's from the toronto star which might make you melt if you click on the link, but c'mon jay, i'd thought you'd post the opinion piece by karen's counterpart Denzil Minnan-Wong as well? those 2 go together like peas in a pod. actually, all three of you would fit well together.
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/638471 |
He makes sense. Dont lower capacity, INCREASE capacity on all fronts including transit.
Whats so wrong about that? The only thing i can think of here is NIMBYism |
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| Skipper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
So you are telling me that the current subway/transit and road system is sufficient? Or do you just feel the need to counter every single point i make in spite of its validity? LOL |
I just acknowledged in my post that it needs improvement. I was pointing out that the fact that NYC has 3 subway lines under Broadway is irrelevant, because Toronto simply does not require that. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Elendil
I'm just glad I don't have to live in the cesspool that is a major city like Toronto. Sweet. ;) Night-time weekend visits suit me just fine. |
hear hear! |
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| Dr. Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
But bike lanes do very little to nothing for the city if they take up vehicle capacity. How about elevated roads? elevated Subways? In china i lived next to an expressway that was elevated right through the city centre and you barely noticed it. It had one way roads on either sides with streetscapes. The bridge was nicely painted and had brush all around it. How about elevated trains like chicago or detroit? Tunnels? Lets spend money on these things. Id even be in favour of (gasp) a toll but only if they were to announce a massive project like this CITYWIDE.
Cutting capacity with no long term vision for the city is foolish. Adding more streetcars is even dumber. And this laughable transit program that they announced that will close even more lanes of traffic in the suburbs wont even be ready until 2020!! |
Unlike those Chinese people (who stare at the ground when they walk anyway), I actually care about the air space and the community I live in. The last thing I want is a giant metal rollercoaster disturbing above my head.
In any case, the problem is that we live in a retarded society where:
1. a 200 employee office building needs 200 parking spaces...
2. to order a $5 sticker off of ebay , a UPS truck hand delivers it to my door, an environmental nightmare...
3. driving my car into the city and driving out is as (if not less) expensive as public transportation...
4. etc |
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