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starcraft 2? (pg. 13)
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| DaRoZa |
so it's not true that if you maximize your economy by never pausing probes, there's no way his army will be bigger than yours?
at what point do you decide to just stop or slow down making workers then? other than when it' required for an early all-in cheese or something. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| bronze league here i come! man i suck at this game. |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaRoZa
so it's not true that if you maximize your economy by never pausing probes, there's no way his army will be bigger than yours?
at what point do you decide to just stop or slow down making workers then? other than when it' required for an early all-in cheese or something. |
Well it's a little bit different for Zerg, we have to decide to make an army OR drones, but the concept is the same.
You can also fall into the trap where you have so many peons, but you aren't making enough unit-producing buildings, making too many, not expanding quick enough, not able to build an army while defending/harrassing with your own... etc.
But, the general principle is sound. If you keep making peons, and never let yourself get supply blocked, you're on easy-street to Diamond, which I just hit 2 nights ago, rank 35ish :-p |
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| Darkarbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaRoZa
so it's not true that if you maximize your economy by never pausing probes, there's no way his army will be bigger than yours?
at what point do you decide to just stop or slow down making workers then? other than when it' required for an early all-in cheese or something. |
Depends... you might stop building so you can quickly get some units to harass... or some units to defend an expansion... or both, or some units in case you've underestimated your oponnents army... or to prepare for possibly any of the three.
There has to be a reason for it though, and while it's pretty much true early on... once you're at 20 supply there might be good reasons for it or you might be being harassed early. |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by Darkarbiter
Depends... you might stop building so you can quickly get some units to harass... or some units to defend an expansion... or both, or some units in case you've underestimated your oponnents army... or to prepare for possibly any of the three.
There has to be a reason for it though, and while it's pretty much true early on... once you're at 20 supply there might be good reasons for it or you might be being harassed early. |
If you aren't dedicating your game to cheese or an all-in, there's never a good reason to stop making peons. Not making enough peons is the most common mistake that bronze/silver/gold players make.
Skip to 15 minutes in this video.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4170265/
In many games that he won during the GSL this month, FruitDealer had more than 75 drones! |
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| kuollutrunkkau5 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spam
If you aren't dedicating your game to cheese or an all-in, there's never a good reason to stop making peons. Not making enough peons is the most common mistake that bronze/silver/gold players make.
Skip to 15 minutes in this video.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4170265/
In many games that he won during the GSL this month, FruitDealer had more than 75 drones! |
Pretty much this rule of thumb will enhance your game. But you should also expand enough. 30 probes on two bases will outperform 50 probes on one base. |
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| kuollutrunkkau5 |
Just got proxy raxed. My 9 pylon probe gets there, sees nothing there except an SCV starting to build a depot, of course I as hell scout my plateau and yap, a baracks already finnished and an SCV building a bunker, kill the SCV with three probes and the one marine with them, lost one probe in it. Don't really see myself taking down the baracks so I just waited for my zealot. In the end I only got it down after my first stalker, when he has no marines anymore and I attack the barracks, just quits.
What's really annoying is that he even managed to put it on rapid pause and depauses in the micro battle that went on there. Amazing this one still managed to get in platinum if he played like that, his micro was very weak in that battle and his kiting was far off.
He didn't even cancel the bunker that I halted, amazing. |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by kuollutrunkkau5
Just got proxy raxed. My 9 pylon probe gets there, sees nothing there except an SCV starting to build a depot, of course I as hell scout my plateau and yap, a baracks already finnished and an SCV building a bunker, kill the SCV with three probes and the one marine with them, lost one probe in it. Don't really see myself taking down the baracks so I just waited for my zealot. In the end I only got it down after my first stalker, when he has no marines anymore and I attack the barracks, just quits.
What's really annoying is that he even managed to put it on rapid pause and depauses in the micro battle that went on there. Amazing this one still managed to get in platinum if he played like that, his micro was very weak in that battle and his kiting was far off.
He didn't even cancel the bunker that I halted, amazing. |
Barracks first won't be possible anymore after the next patch! Woohoo!
1.2 is going to require Terran to build a supply depot before barracks from now on. |
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| kuollutrunkkau5 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spam
Barracks first won't be possible anymore after the next patch! Woohoo!
1.2 is going to require Terran to build a supply depot before barracks from now on. |
Yap, I read it, not sure if I agree.
Supposedly it's to downplay the reaper harass rush. But has anyone ever used reapers for another thing?
Try putting reapers into your army?
Though, it would be pretty cool to attack the other with reapers as they march to you.
Nice thing about protoss is that you can spy without them knowing that you spy. I have observers all across the map in longer games and know when they are coming usually. It's just too funny to drop two templar and storm and then archon to force them to turn around each time. And to add insult to injury load the archon into the dropship if they don't have vikings or similar stuff with their army.
What's really weird though is that the other day I just found a hatchery in my base, a proxy hatch, ahaha. the moment I start attacking it -> quit. |
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| Spam |
| quote: | Originally posted by kuollutrunkkau5
Yap, I read it, not sure if I agree.
Supposedly it's to downplay the reaper harass rush. But has anyone ever used reapers for another thing?
Try putting reapers into your army?
Though, it would be pretty cool to attack the other with reapers as they march to you.
Nice thing about protoss is that you can spy without them knowing that you spy. I have observers all across the map in longer games and know when they are coming usually. It's just too funny to drop two templar and storm and then archon to force them to turn around each time. And to add insult to injury load the archon into the dropship if they don't have vikings or similar stuff with their army.
What's really weird though is that the other day I just found a hatchery in my base, a proxy hatch, ahaha. the moment I start attacking it -> quit. |
I've got a couple of replays from 2v2s where I proxy-hatched and did a spine-crawler/queen rush. I wonder how stupid those people felt after getting pwned by that garbage :p
I'm with you that I'm not sure the barracks change is required strictly to stop reaper harrass... it seems like the 5 second delay, plus people learning proper reaper responses, were actually doing their job and lots of terrans started to find other ways to harrass... At the same time, I don't think that the depot-first is going to change much in the way of terran power, since 99% of the solid, dependable T builds are depot-first anyway.
I'm really excited about the roach range increase though. No matter what I do, if I use roaches I lose :-p, so this will probably help me. I'm very much a mutabling dependent zerg. |
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| kuollutrunkkau5 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spam
I've got a couple of replays from 2v2s where I proxy-hatched and did a spine-crawler/queen rush. I wonder how stupid those people felt after getting pwned by that garbage :p |
The simplest way to counter impending stationary defence rushes is just to put up some of your own.
Of course, a hatchery at the same time is also a production building.
| quote: | | I'm with you that I'm not sure the barracks change is required strictly to stop reaper harrass... it seems like the 5 second delay, plus people learning proper reaper responses, were actually doing their job and lots of terrans started to find other ways to harrass... At the same time, I don't think that the depot-first is going to change much in the way of terran power, since 99% of the solid, dependable T builds are depot-first anyway. |
I guess that's why it's to counter the really early reaper rushes only where they actually build the baracks before the depot already.
| quote: | | I'm really excited about the roach range increase though. No matter what I do, if I use roaches I lose :-p, so this will probably help me. I'm very much a mutabling dependent zerg. |
It will make it harder for me to forcefield your roaches and let my sentries and stalkers own them. =( We still outrange them though, just take a step back I supposed.
I find it interesting that roaches have been nerfed and then buffed.
It's weird since a lot of people say that roaches are already overpowered due to their insane amounts of hp for cost. And they can move while burrowed and regenerate like plasma shields.
I would rather see mutalisk damage increased. Or at least the upgrade. I mean, the bounces don't get any upgrade at all. and the main only 1.
A sentry's shield basically cuts almost half of the damage of a mutalisk. I find it funny that many people always paranoidly start to pump stalkers after a early muta harass. What you need is sentries, mutalisks are light, stalkers do poor damage against them. Sentries do the same, but also have the shield.
Also, mutalisks have really poor damage, beyond killing workers they aren't really building killers unless they come in really large numbers. Usually I just pump zealots then and go baseracing, especially if it's really early and you know all they have are a couple of zerglings and banelings. Together with the guardian shields, the zealots kill the base before they are dead basically.
Mutalisks are terrorists, they work by spreading fear, by giving you fear to move out. Their damage output is weak, as is their hp for cost, but they are fast and hard to chase down.
As HD correctly said in one of his videos, muta-ling gives you map-control. Don't give that to the zerg by being fearful, take your chances. The chances are that you will win the base-race. |
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| DaRoZa |
like most zerg units mutas have to be in the right place at the right time to do much. the only time mass muta or mutaling really works is when the first few mutas do enough damage to your econ that he can safely just outmass you with them.
unless i feel like 4 gating, i almost always open with 2 gate phoenix vs a standard zerg FE build. it shuts down the possibility of early mutas, lets me harass his ovies/workers, lets me scout without zerglings denying and secure my own expo.
and , i will quit the game if i ever lose to a proxy hatchery :haha:
PvZ is probably my favourite matchup though, most of my win/losses are deserved.
PvP needs to be fixed though. such an annoying matchup in longer games. observers seeing observers and seeing which gets sniped first and other kinds of bull. to avoid annoyance i usually just cheese and win every game by using the good ol' korean 4 gate strat... and perfecting my own twist to it, korean 3 gate forge. automatic win guaranteed if the other guy does a standard gate to core build. |
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