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A hypothetical/experimental question I've always wanted to test. (pg. 2)
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| kitphillips |
| I don't feel that way anymore. I know that the only thing limiting me is me. Its such a liberating sensation. |
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| evo8 |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
I don't feel that way anymore. I know that the only thing limiting me is me. Its such a liberating sensation. |
yeah same as that - can be a bit depressing though sometimes :sadgreen: |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Yeh see thats 1 thing I kinda wanted to test. Cause you're saying "data is data", but sequencers are using different algorithms right?
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The variations are going to boil down to really irrelevant things like the programming language used to wrote the DAW package and hooks into the hardware. The basic methodology for summing and rendering audio in the digital realm is pretty standard across platforms and DAW packages.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
And your claim is the difference wouldn't be "audible" but it just seems odd. Why not have a standardized rendering algorithm?
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Basically they do. That's why I said that the difference would be minuscule. The only differences are down to the different programming languages used to write the software. That is not going to have any type of real audible difference on how audio is rendered.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
What if for instance, in imagelines attempt to mirror another daws algorithm (maybe they start writing them from scratch who knows), what if their algorithm simply isn't as good?
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The DAW packages available today have all pretty much figured out how to write a summing algorithm. One is really not any more inferior than another. Where you may see some difference is in the 3rd plugins that are used, as those are written by other people.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I mean if algorithms from synths can create such vast variations in sound, how is a rendering algorithm any less susceptible to variations?
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Because the concept has been around long enough for everyone to have basically figured out how to do it. The audio rendering and summing algorithms in each DAW package is not really a trade secret among DAW package developers any more. Its not like one has a better one than another.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Is it possible that certain sequencers (ie. Logic) have algorithms that can handle more tracks or more sound in general? While conversely if I tried to overload Fl Studios with too much sound it becomes difficult for the algorithm to do its job? Maybe it starts phasing or misinterpreting frequencies?
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While certain packages can handle higher track counts, this really doesn't come into play when rendering ESPECIALLY if you are rendering offline. Where the high track counts come into play is when playing things back in real time, as every producer knows well. Again, data is data is data. At the end of the day, its all about how much concurrent processing your system can handle. But its not like if your system gets overloaded or cant handle the processing that it somehow degrades the audio. Its all 1 and 0. Thats it.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Ok because the main reason for this thread was I just copied 5 out of 6 of Tyas basslines to a *T* (from the FM verano bassline interview part 4). I mean these were sounds I knew, so they were easy to reproduce (except 1 fm sound) and the variation between how mine sounded when playing through FL Studio was enormous.
Obviously theres a MASS of other things going on here. But I found it surprising while solo'd, my layers sounded nearly identical, but together just playing at once in FL it sounded like an atrocious mess of . I even equalized and sidechained as close to how he said everything was done. Its just hard to sit here and blame myself when I don't see what I 'missed' I guess. Thats for another thread however I suppose. I'll keep at it and if I can't get close I may have to post another thread so other people can compare and use their own ears.
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Just keep in mind that parts in solo may not sound good in the context of a track and vice versa.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I will GLADLY test this once if you'd like this weekend. I really would like to see if the variation is obvious, and to what extent.
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I'll need to get my patchbay first before I can test this, but my Apogee has this CODA technology that is for mastering and finishing, so I want to try it out and see how well it does.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I wasn't understanding that 1 important point. I thought a better quality card/interface sent the sound back to the sequencer and if you were rendering it recorded that higher quality right in the sequencer. For some reason I thought even with a ty sound card I'd be able to hear the higher quality rendering that your equipment did. This really just blew my mind apart. So if I can't even hear it on my speakers, than the quality of my own music is limited by what someone else is using to listen to it. It makes the difference seem so minuscule that a better sound card/interface isn't even worth it (I'm getting deja vu now cause I realized you already answered that exact statement once before, about it not being worth it when you explained the various other things a quality interface does).
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You just hit on one of the main jobs of a mastering engineer: To ensure that a piece of music sounds as consistent as possible across many type of sound systems. From a large concert hall, to a hi-fi stereo system, to a car stereo, to a tiny boom box, to iPod headphones. Great mastering engineers ensure that your track sounds as CONSISTENT as possible across ALL of these mediums.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Granted I understand you might get cleaner his and mids, and that will help you mix better (which prob wouldn't be significant from a placebo in real life) but it would seem that even with a ty sound card, I should be able to get at least 98% the sound a pro is getting?
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Yes and no. If you know your system so well that you know how it translates across many different types of systems, then, yes, it is possible to get there with less than quality equipment. The problem is that most people who have less than quality equipment DON'T know, and unless you do this full time or have access to a lot of different sound system types, its pretty hard TO know. This is where experience and better quality equipment can help a LOT.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
And right now I'm getting like 40%. This is so confusing because people ALWAYS say its what you know, its your experience, but when I watched that Tyas vid I didn't see a single thing he was doing that I don't already do or know to do. I didn't see a variation in the quality of his sounds when they were solo'd. But meanwhile mine sounds like it was made my a deafman.
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Yes, but what you did not see was the entire track making process, start to finish. I only saw parts of the video, but what I saw was the composing, arrangement and a bit of "mixing as you go along" phase of the track. Thats great, but you still need the experience to take it from that rough draft and turn it into a finished product. Maybe he does that on his own, maybe he takes it to another studio, or maybe he has someone else do it for him. Either way, once you have been doing this for a while, you start to instinctively know what needs to be done and its pretty difficult to get that experience to translate across a video. For the most part, all I see in these videos is WHAT they do with no explanation as to WHY they are doing it, and that is where the real valuable information resides. You need to know why they are doing this or that.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Ok well thanks for the help. Even when I think about it, anytime I sample from a track and render it it sounds exactly like the original, so its not like I'm hearing a variation now.
I've worried that FL has SOME sort of defecit somewhere sonically speaking, and I've been going back and forth the last few months blaming fruity, than blaming me, than blaming fruity, than blaming myself and it just goes back and forth.
I'm doing EVERYTHING else people are doing. I'm not deaf, I know the rules, and I know when I need to break them. I know what a "phat" sound is, I know what a harmonically rich sound is, I know what too much bass and not enough kick means (or vice versa) I know how to clean up sounds so they fit. It just seems like my knowledge of music is nowhere matching my sound. Granted on this board compared to some people I don't really know a lot of anything, but I know enough to know I'm missing something very basic, thats destroying my music, and I don't know what it is.
I guess all I can do is just keep practicing through the frustration. I don't wanna make great music for money, I don't really give a about money tbo (I have a job I love) I don't care if I made the best track in the world & noone ever heard it. It just doesn't seem like getting a good solid sound should be this difficult. My sound sources are the best they can be, sure I have a computer and cheap pair of monitors, but it doesn't seem like thats the reason for the sound I keep getting.
I'll be approaching 7 years in June (started on my b-day so I'll never forget) and its appauling how far I am from where I want to be. I mean I'm never gonna stop, but if I'm 40 years old (27 now) and can't make a good trance track, I might as well just throw myself off a bridge lol. |
Keep in mind that what you perceive as "phat" or "harmonically rich" on your system may sound totally different on a higher quality system. It may sound "boomy" or "too airy". Because thats where lower quality equipment fails.
While it is true that buying a Virus TI or a fully loaded Mac is not going to instantly make your music better, upgrading your monitoring and D/A can do exactly that. I am still a big proponent of buying high quality monitoring, good room treatment and good D/A conversion. Those things WILL have an immediate impact on your work because all of the sudden you can HEAR what is going on. Audio becomes detailed, precise, 3D, crisp, controlled. Its like a veil is lifted from your speakers and all of the sudden the deficiencies on your mixing and audio becomes really obvious, thus allowing you to correct it.
I cannot tell you how much of a difference having high quality monitors, good acoustic room treatment, and high quality D/A has made. Its like night and day. The problem is that you really have to experience it to know it. Its hard to explain it on a forum, but once you hear it, you wonder how you ever lived without it. |
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| TranceLover007 |
Thanks Eric for this free, very educational post - great info man.
Cheers |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
Really Eric you've continually amazed me with your level of knowledge and how well you are able to explain this stuff to someone who's having a hard time (and kit too even though he has less patience with me lol). I thoroughly appreciate all your guys help.
And Kit: I want you to know that liberating feeling of knowing you are the only one responsible is NOT an easy thing for someone to come to terms with. Its like I'm in an oscillating phase how I blame myself, than blame Fruity and keep going back and forth.
The reason I blame Fruity (you obviously know because you've been around the block longer than me) is sometimes its hard when you geniunely don't see what you're doing wrong.. to see what you're doing wrong lol.
I'm assuming at this point that "knowing the basics" doesn't really get you far at all in music. I thought by years of practice, and familiarizing yourself enough with 1 sequencer, it would be possible to make somewhat professional trance overtime but the rate at which I'm improving is NOT a rate that is going to have me making the music I want anytime soon.
I am the type of person who geniunely loses his mind if he can't do something he's exausted so much energy into accomplishing. I got a degree in chem and will be getting my degree in pysch the end of August, and NEVER IN MY LIFE have I ever experienced something as difficult to master as music. Not even women are this difficult. And I think at this point I may need to get my technical side up to par. Theres nothing else I can think of doing. Its not music theory I need it has to be something technical that I'm missing, and I may need to start over from step 1 and do some serious reading. I see guys on this board who knows heaps and tons about technical , who are making better music than I am, so I don't think it can hurt in the end, and I don't know what else I really need to be learning at this point.
Thanks all for your help. |
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| Beatflux |
The value of watching those producer videos can be varying just because they don't usually explain why they do things. Flemming is one of those exceptions, where he tries to teach you different techniques and guidelines. My guess is that a lot of people want to know the details of what is used for synthesis and effects, but that is more of a moot point because that kind of knowledge isn't as useful as their philosophy surrounding them use of their equipment.
There were probably a million little details Tyas left out in that video, not to slight him, but because it might have taken too long to fit on the DVD.
Robby-
Posting your for critique would have been a better use of time. |
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| TranceLover007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Beatflux
Robby-
Posting your for critique would have been a better use of time. |
Yessss, this is a great idea. Robby, do it for all of us man, give it a try - we will help.
Cheers |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Beatflux
The value of watching those producer videos can be varying just because they don't usually explain why they do things. Flemming is one of those exceptions, where he tries to teach you different techniques and guidelines. My guess is that a lot of people want to know the details of what is used for synthesis and effects, but that is more of a moot point because that kind of knowledge isn't as useful as their philosophy surrounding them use of their equipment.
There were probably a million little details Tyas left out in that video, not to slight him, but because it might have taken too long to fit on the DVD.
Robby-
Posting your for critique would have been a better use of time. |
Absolutely I agree. I was going to post my stuff and I still am, but I really needed to clear this up once and for all. I think at this point the "blame anything but me" threads have to be finished.
For now on I agree, submitting work is a much more valuable use of time. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceLover007
Yessss, this is a great idea. Robby, do it for all of us man, give it a try - we will help.
Cheers |
Ok thanks, just don't wanna make your jobs too easy so I gotta make sure its somewhat up to par production wise. |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I'm assuming at this point that "knowing the basics" doesn't really get you far at all in music. I thought by years of practice, and familiarizing yourself enough with 1 sequencer, it would be possible to make somewhat professional trance overtime but the rate at which I'm improving is NOT a rate that is going to have me making the music I want anytime soon.
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Just keep at it man, everyone struggles with something no matter what level they are at. Well, except maybe if you are BT. :)
No, but seriously, you just have to keep at it. Sometimes it helps to try different approaches. Try just writing a good track. Forget all about what the kick sounds like or what this or that synth sounds like, just get a good, completed arrangement down and then worry about replacing sounds.
There is an old rule in composition that states something to the effect of "if the track sounds good with just a vocal and an acoustic guitar, then you know its good". Take that same philosophy to your music. Too many producers become obsessed with "this kick" or "that synth sound", when really they just need to be writing. Its a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. Don't get bogged down in the details at first. Just get a good composition and arrangement nailed down first, and you'll be surprised how easy it becomes to choose good sounds.
| quote: | Originally posted by Beatflux
The value of watching those producer videos can be varying just because they don't usually explain why they do things. Flemming is one of those exceptions, where he tries to teach you different techniques and guidelines. My guess is that a lot of people want to know the details of what is used for synthesis and effects, but that is more of a moot point because that kind of knowledge isn't as useful as their philosophy surrounding them use of their equipment.
There were probably a million little details Tyas left out in that video, not to slight him, but because it might have taken too long to fit on the DVD.
Robby-
Posting your for critique would have been a better use of time. |
That is precisely why those types of videos are of limited value. I watch them because occasionally I'll see a trick or feature that I didn't know about. The Tyas video, while not really my cup of tea musically, did showcase a couple of features of Logic that i did not know about, such as the EXS24 REX mapping trick. However, that was about the extent of the value.
The problem really boils down to the fact that each track is unique and what works for one track isn't necessarily going to translate to your music. Even between your own tracks, trying to recycle parts you have used successfully in other tracks generally doesn't work out very well because those type of techniques only work in the context of that one particular track. |
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| TranceLover007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
Ok thanks, just don't wanna make your jobs too easy so I gotta make sure its somewhat up to par production wise. |
We are in the same boat Robby, this task is huge and the job is not easy but some how we still can find some motivation to keep moving forward.
Can't wait man.
Cheers |
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| Nightshift |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eric J
Just keep at it man, everyone struggles with something no matter what level they are at. Well, except maybe if you are BT. :)
No, but seriously, you just have to keep at it. Sometimes it helps to try different approaches. Try just writing a good track. Forget all about what the kick sounds like or what this or that synth sounds like, just get a good, completed arrangement down and then worry about replacing sounds.
There is an old rule in composition that states something to the effect of "if the track sounds good with just a vocal and an acoustic guitar, then you know its good". Take that same philosophy to your music. Too many producers become obsessed with "this kick" or "that synth sound", when really they just need to be writing. Its a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. Don't get bogged down in the details at first. Just get a good composition and arrangement nailed down first, and you'll be surprised how easy it becomes to choose good sounds.
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+1 |
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