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The concept of Form (pg. 2)
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| Mad for Brad |
| yes , you can aim low. That is your prerogative but if you really don't care about improving your craft, why are you on here. |
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| owien |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
yes , you can aim low. That is your prerogative but if you really don't care about improving your craft, why are you on here. |
the same question can be directed to you making a good dance tune is no low point infact i will say it's a great feat as not many producers can pull it of.
learning great skills in music production is something to be proud of granted its just sad when it comes to making great music mastering your art seems to play second fiddle to enjoyable music. |
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| Mad for Brad |
what do you mean ?
The problem is that I am short on enjoyable music because I notice these flaws. I just offered a topic that hasn't ever really been discussed. You will find that most pop songs, lets say pre 90s were rather well created both technically in the sense that the composition was great and they were enjoyable. |
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| theterran |
Deleting all of my rant and going back to wondering what the OP is actually about...
Are you saying that today's music is "worse" than music in the past, because of an overal trend in deteriorating musical structure? And that previous music compositions were more organized?
Or are you talking about the majority of the productions you hear on these boards...
Are we talking about professional EDM artists like Tiesto, Paul Van dyk etc...? Or are we talking about us hobbyist's and hopefuls?
In my mind, pop has always sucked. The thought of having to cater to the masses always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Make what you want, not what they want.
Oh and! I find that the best productions from an artist...are typically the one's that made them famous in the first place...but once they're famous, they begin sucking and fade out...Take infected mushroom for example...Their original stuff is great...their new "pop" is .
But it makes sense. Once you're famous, your fans will typically go ape over anything you make even if it sucks. So why bother with putting your soul into things at that point? You could even hire someone else to do your music for you and people would still eat it up.
Or...Tiesto. I don't remember him before Just Be / Elements of life...both albums fantastic...his latest stuff being quite "meh" comparatively. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
what do you mean ?
The problem is that I am short on enjoyable music because I notice these flaws. I just offered a topic that hasn't ever really been discussed. You will find that most pop songs, lets say pre 90s were rather well created both technically in the sense that the composition was great and they were enjoyable. |
I'd say prior to the 80's, really. There were a few good 80's songs but they seem outnumbered by the horrid ones. |
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| Andy28 |
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
Tiesto. I don't remember him before Just Be / Elements of life...both albums fantastic...his latest stuff being quite "meh" comparatively. |
Really?? Thats when i started going off him..
His version of Adagio for Strings imo was way over rated, (not a scratch on Ferrys mix) and thought the same about Traffic, just didn't get why people went mad for it.
Tiesto pre just be to name a few obvious ones.. flight 643, suburban train, and remixes of southern sun and destination sunrise
Going back on topic..
Iv read about this before but at the time i remember thinking who ever wrote this is just over analyzing things and my opinion was that all these things are there in tracks because it works and sounds good.. To a point i still do think that, but not sure if its how M4B has explained it does now make alot of sense. |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Andy28
Really?? Thats when i started going off him..
His version of Adagio for Strings imo was way over rated, (not a scratch on Ferrys mix) and thought the same about Traffic, just didn't get why people went mad for it.
Tiesto pre just be to name a few obvious ones.. flight 643, suburban train, and remixes of southern sun and destination sunrise |
Didn't like adagio or traffic either. I much preferred Magik Journey and and Suburban like you said...Just Be (Antillas Remix) was fantastic...
From Elements, I was only thinking of a few songs in-particular : Everything, Sweet Things, Bright Morning Star. And that's about it.
Was definitely trying to tie that point in however. Seems like once he went mainstream/pop, his sound became kinda generic. |
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| kevin shawn |
Tiesto never made any of his records. When I found this out 2 years ago I was heartbroken.
He has now reached douche status in my book from not making his own tunes and trainwrecking hard the last 2 times I've seen him. |
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| JEO |
Could you post an example of some edm track that has good form and maybe explain it?
I'm almost there, but have to verify I got the point.
So let's say, I've worked out a good, melodic progression, that apparently would be the motive of my track. Now where form comes in, is that I won't just play the obvious trance intro one chord all the way till the breakdown and then introduce my whole motive? I'll rather have different, stripped melodies playing through the intro and stuff, derived from the main motive / the main idea of the track?
This all done in a pleasant way, so that the track won't just seem like a collection of melodies from the same theme?
| quote: | Originally posted by JEO
Though I could be so wrong.. |
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| Andy28 |
| quote: | Originally posted by kevin shawn
Tiesto never made any of his records. |
Nooo not this again!! |
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| tehlord |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mad for Brad
EDM producers tend to be deficient in many aspects foremost theory but where as theory doesn't really have to matter in EDM , form is essential. This isn't really a tutorial but rather just an introduction of a topic many people don't seem to know anything about.
The form of a track is the layout and relationship between all your elements. I think most weakness among producers is not really putting much thought into form.
You should be thinking about not only your main synth line but rather your main motive that might make up your main synth line. The goal really is to create something that can be explained in a way that sort of follows the law of parsimony. THe great composers would make 30 minute symphonies based on the motive of 3 notes. Everything is related and there is a reason why things are there. Key relationships between major parts have a logical procession and you can clearly chart this logical progression over a piece that might last 20 minutes.
When you are creating a track , you need to ask yourself why you are putting the element in the spot and your reasoning should be a little more confident than it sounds dope. If you create your tracks always trying to unify your elements so that there is some form of cohesion between the entire track, you will create better work.
Things like foreshadowing, fragmenting the main hook and using that as an element or doing any number of alterations to the main line so that instead of just random arps that sound pretty and reinforce they key, you have elements that make logical sense.
Just a rant. The concept is usually referred to as organicism where every element from your track is born out of some relationship to the main motive or hook if it is the main motive. Motives can be melodic in nature but also rhythmic.
Anyways just a rant. I guess I'm saying you should think more about what you are doing and why you are doing it. It will help you make better unified music but will also help you avoid cliches and unnecessary elements. |
Yup.
I'm pretty sure i've not got the best relationship out of leads, arps and other elements yet. In some respects the ability to do whatever you want in a digital environment paradoxically clouds your ability to find the right way of expressing the initial idea you had.
I do find myself spending way more time choosing parts in a track now and binning those that I don't feel add anything.
Long road ahead however.
Good post.
Mom (or Mum to those that can spell properly) would be proud. |
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| Beatflux |
| quote: | Originally posted by JEO
Could you post an example of some edm track that has good form and maybe explain it?
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I 2nd this. Make yourself more useful Brad. |
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